Viktor Needs No Buffs!

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Regulas

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Senior Member

12-28-2012

Well there's also the fact that I don't ever use Laser as my main damage tool, the high CD and higher mana-cost are very limiting, making his game-play extremely linear and the max-range style play highly inhibits use of his other abilities. There are specific champions that I will have a harder time against because of this, but I am able to win against almost everything else fairly easily, or at worst I can't be zoned.

I used to think Viktor was mediocre until I stopped maxing laser first.

Q speed boost works on cast, and works on creeps, and because of the short CD you can hit a creep get in range and then it's up again for more speed, similarly if I'm being chased down there's no danger if I'm not in Q range, and if I am then I escape, because you probably don't max Q first your also probably not used to having it on a lower CD early game.

The bulk of R dmg is dealt over time (nearly twice the base dmg hit).

Basically the problem is this: You play Viktor like a long range burst caster. I play Viktor as a close range AP bruiser, relying on maneuverability and my CC more-so then tankyness. Against ranged characters I stick close range, against melee I hover just outside there attack range.

Also note as this version of Vik is defiantly a higher skill level to use properly as your positioning and dodging skills are far more relevant.


I also should add: E with Death rod has a total damage 325+91% AP. Q has a total DMG+Shield stat of 319+91%AP, just in-case your underestimating the trade value of Q, or overestimating laser with Death. The damage boost on Death rod is deceptive because it makes you ignore the mediocre base stats of laser (also the Shield is calculated before resistances in-case you were wondering).


As for Gravity, it is technically worthwhile, the problem is it requires competent allies in order to maximize it's effectiveness, so unless you're apart of a pre-made then it is indeed not so worth it.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
Well there's also the fact that I don't ever use Laser as my main damage tool, the high CD and higher mana-cost are very limiting, making his game-play extremely linear and the max-range style play highly inhibits use of his other abilities. There are specific champions that I will have a harder time against because of this, but I am able to win against almost everything else fairly easily, or at worst I can't be zoned.

I used to think Viktor was mediocre until I stopped maxing laser first.
E is very mana limiting, this is definitely true. However, the high range, vector targeting, and ability to shoot-on-the-run, and high damage (in conjunction with Death) make it an amazing ability and well worth its cost. Personally I find Chalice to be a vital early game item on Viktor for exactly that reason. And while staying at max range does limit the use of your other abilities E only gets better the closer you are to your target, as it's an instant hit at closer ranges. The play style is to soften the enemy with repeated harassment and then close distance once their health is actually low enough for you to get a kill, or when your team has initiated.

I personally had little success with Viktor until I started leveling E first, as with it he has a strong presence early game, and without it he's far too easy to out-range by most enemy mids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
Q speed boost works on cast, and works on creeps, and because of the short CD you can hit a creep get in range and then it's up again for more speed, similarly if I'm being chased down there's no danger if I'm not in Q range, and if I am then I escape, because you probably don't max Q first your also probably not used to having it on a lower CD early game.

The bulk of R dmg is dealt over time (nearly twice the base dmg hit).
Yeah, Qing a minion can grant you a speed boost, but it puts your Q temporarily on cooldown and telegraphs your intention to engage. Additionally, repeated use of Q is even more mana hungry than utilizing E.

There's no denying that Power makes Viktor great at chasing/kiting, but I find W quite good at keeping me safe, and chasing is rarely a good idea for an APC. If W isn't enough as a defensive tool then I'm skeptical about Power's ability to keep me safe, as a gap closer followed up by a slow will largely negate the bonus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
Basically the problem is this: You play Viktor like a long range burst caster. I play Viktor as a close range AP bruiser, relying on maneuverability and my CC more-so then tankyness. Against ranged characters I stick close range, against melee I hover just outside there attack range.
MS alone just isn't good enough in team fights if you aren't at far range. Many abilities, including CC, are purely point-and-click and 600 range is usually close enough for them to be applied. At which point, unless you've a fair bit more survivability than Power alone provides, you're pretty well done for. Likewise the MS buff may make it easier to dodge skill shots but your closer proximity also makes it easier to land them, partly negating the benefit.

In team fights you can't stick close to ranged champs while also being outside the range of melee champs. Not unless someone on their team has royally screwed up their positioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
Edit: Also note as this version of Vik is defiantly a higher skill level to use properly as your positioning and dodging skills are far more relevant.
That's debatable. Both builds are highly dependent on positioning, though yours would be more so. However, E is a high skill-cap ability on it's own where as Q is point-and-click.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
I also should add: E with Death rod has a total damage 325+91% AP. Q has a total DMG+Shield stat of 319+91%AP, just in-case your underestimating the trade value of Q, or overestimating laser with Death. The damage boost on Death rod is deceptive because it makes you ignore the mediocre base stats of laser (also the Shield is calculated before resistances in-case you were wondering).
This effectively isn't true. You don't receive the shield until the ability returns, and you're giving the range advantage to almost any other conventional mid by level Q first. You will have already been harassed by the time the shield applies which largely defeats the purpose. Q doesn't really come into it's own until teamfights, at which point you'll almost certainly see full benefit of the shield and the lower cooldown will actually come into play, but in that situation E is doing 325+91%AP X number of champs hit, and it's easy to hit two or more enemy champs in a team fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
As for Gravity, it is technically worthwhile, the problem is it requires competent allies in order to maximize it's effectiveness, so unless you're apart of a pre-made then it is indeed not so worth it.
I disagree. All the passive for Gravity does is make it easier to use, making things less dependent on your team's ability. If you can coordinate with your team to use W after they initiate (or after the enemy team initiates) it's range becomes far less problematic. Similarly it isn't particularly efficient for stats, doubly so as you'll still need another form of mana regen, as the amount it provides isn't enough for your mana needs, and flat mana is like health regen in that it's usefulness decreases as the game progresses outside of champs like Anivia/Swain who benefit from having larger than normal mana pools.

I should mention that when Viktor was released I was very excited to build him as an AP bruiser. His whole augment theme was advertised as having Power open that up as a viable build. Ultimately I was disappointed. Power is very inefficient for stats and Viktor's base stats don't mesh with the role. His only sustained damage abilities are his Q and R, and in teamfights where enemies have more difficulty disengaging R actually becomes more effective in a ranged burst build because of their ability to focus more on building AP.


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Regulas

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Senior Member

12-28-2012

Here is where the play-style difference comes in.

If I manage to Q you, I don't back off, because then indeed I will loose the exchange, instead I charge in deeper, auto-attacking and lasering and staying in range for my next Q which, since you will probably be leveling a long range skill will defiantly be coming off CD before yours does, all the while the shield giving me an extra advantage.

The reason I started using this build is I found that most champions 1v1 won't be able to out-do you in a straight up fight (especially given your W), and those that can are usually close range champions that you can outmanouver. The result is that I can often simply dominate my lane, outright zoning quite a lot of typical opponents within the first few levels.

I will admit some of your teamfight damage is lower though while I do grab Power augment, I otherwise build more typical AP items, when I say AP bruiser i don't mean that I go outright for tanky items, it's more of the playstyle then the build itself.

Also I find that with Power top is potentially a viable lane.


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Arrevax

Senior Member

12-28-2012

I've owned Viktor for a good while now, and play him frequently.
His main issue is his passive. It's comparable to Syndra's. She gets a unique boost to each of her abilities, while Viktor has to choose one. It does give him some stats, but it costs him an item slot. The stats (including the ability boost) are inferior to many late-game items. This weakens him considerably, and the fact that he must purchase the upgraded Augment interrupts typical item building. A rework would be very much appreciated by Viktor players- possible solutions include things like putting the Augment into his passive slot (meaning he would have a "real" passive instead of a unique, less-than-stellar item), adding a third tier to the Augments (meaning his Augment would become comparable to other late-game items, but he would still be lacking a "true" passive), etc.
He also has long cooldowns, but I think fixing his passive would be enough to make Viktor a competitive pick instead of an uncommon choice in normals.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
Here is where the play-style difference comes in.

If I manage to Q you, I don't back off, because then indeed I will loose the exchange, instead I charge in deeper, auto-attacking and lasering and staying in range for my next Q which, since you will probably be leveling a long range skill will defiantly be coming off CD before yours does, all the while the shield giving me an extra advantage.

The reason I started using this build is I found that most champions 1v1 won't be able to out-do you in a straight up fight (especially given your W), and those that can are usually close range champions that you can outmanouver. The result is that I can often simply dominate my lane, outright zoning quite a lot of typical opponents within the first few levels.

I will admit some of your teamfight damage is lower though while I do grab Power augment, I otherwise build more typical AP items, when I say AP bruiser i don't mean that I go outright for tanky items, it's more of the playstyle then the build itself.

Also I find that with Power top is potentially a viable lane.
But the enemy mid doesn't have to stand around and 1v1 you. That's giving up their range advantage. Why would they do that unless you're low enough that they think they can kill you?

They out-range you, and so can harass you at will any time you aren't being aggressive. You may dodge some, assuming they have skill shots, or shield yourself in time, failing to damage them of course as you wouldn't yet be in range, but they will be able to slowly whittle you down. This is, of course, assuming some semblance of equal skill between players. If you start moving towards them they should quickly start moving back. You only have the needed MS boost to close the distance range if you preemptively put Q on cooldown. Even if Q is maxed that leaves you 4-5 seconds with your primary damage tool unavailable. If they continue to back away, which they should, then the only way you'll get more than one Q on them, even if you land your stun, is if they're so far over-extended that 12-15 seconds of retreat, minus the 1.5 seconds stunned, won't get them safely under the tower. This also doesn't exclude the possibility of them hitting you back while they retreat. Never mind that this also requires you to overextend in turn, leaving you vulnerable to a jungle gank, potentially with your W on cooldown (without using it you'd never hit a retreating champ with a second Q.)

The only situation where this works out is if you're fortunate and the enemy mid also has low range harass, or if they're bad players and stay in a 1v1 against a sustained damage champ. If someone is foolish enough to underutilize their range advantage then I can fully see this build working in lane. But it's unwise to play a build that relies on either a short range enemy mid or a poor opponent in order to win outside of use as a counter pick. Even then the build still has the added vulnerability of needing to stay in relatively close range in team fights.


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Regulas

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Senior Member

12-28-2012

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Originally Posted by PerfidiousAlbion View Post
But the enemy mid doesn't have to stand around and 1v1 you. That's giving up their range advantage. Why would they do that unless you're low enough that they think they can kill you?

They out-range you, and so can harass you at will any time you aren't being aggressive. You may dodge some, assuming they have skill shots, or shield yourself in time, failing to damage them of course as you wouldn't yet be in range, but they will be able to slowly whittle you down. This is, of course, assuming some semblance of equal skill between players. If you start moving towards them they should quickly start moving back. You only have the needed MS boost to close the distance range if you preemptively put Q on cooldown. Even if Q is maxed that leaves you 4-5 seconds with your primary damage tool unavailable. If they continue to back away, which they should, then the only way you'll get more than one Q on them, even if you land your stun, is if they're so far over-extended that 12-15 seconds of retreat, minus the 1.5 seconds stunned, won't get them safely under the tower. This also doesn't exclude the possibility of them hitting you back while they retreat. Never mind that this also requires you to overextend in turn, leaving you vulnerable to a jungle gank, potentially with your W on cooldown (without using it you'd never hit a retreating champ with a second Q.)

The only situation where this works out is if you're fortunate and the enemy mid also has low range harass, or if they're bad players and stay in a 1v1 against a sustained damage champ. If someone is foolish enough to underutilize their range advantage then I can fully see this build working in lane. But it's unwise to play a build that relies on either a short range enemy mid or a poor opponent in order to win outside of use as a counter pick. Even then the build still has the added vulnerability of needing to stay in relatively close range in team fights.

There is a great guide about zoning somewhere you should check out, the gist of it being that you don't have to kill your opponent to win the lane. If they don't try and fight me that's great, they can harass me all they want but they will still be zoned, because the only way to avoid me as you said is if they move back, i.e. away from the creeps. Now if I sucked at dodging that might be a problem, but so long as they're further then 600 dodging skill shots (i.e. long range abilities) isn't so hard, and by the time they whittle me down they'll be to far behind in xp for it to matter, furthermore since there using skill shots I can make them push the lane (bait them into skillshotting at creeps) making it easier and safer to zone. As for ganks well that's what I explicitly save my W for, and it's counter-gank effectiveness is extremely high, such that I feel very safe extending that far forward mid.


Also there are plenty of short range heroes that go mid against long range champs and do fine so all your range arguments are odd anyway.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

12-28-2012

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Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
There is a great guide about zoning somewhere you should check out, the gist of it being that you don't have to kill your opponent to win the lane. If they don't try and fight me that's great, they can harass me all they want but they will still be zoned, because the only way to avoid me as you said is if they move back, i.e. away from the creeps. Now if I sucked at dodging that might be a problem, but so long as they're further then 600 dodging skill shots (i.e. long range abilities) isn't so hard, and by the time they whittle me down they'll be to far behind in xp for it to matter, furthermore since there using skill shots I can make them push the lane (bait them into skillshotting at creeps) making it easier and safer to zone. As for ganks well that's what I explicitly save my W for, and it's counter-gank effectiveness is extremely high, such that I feel very safe extending that far forward mid.


Also there are plenty of short range heroes that go mid against long range champs and do fine so all your range arguments are odd anyway.
Don't be snide, I know how to lane. I just don't see the value in a build that's completely dependent on a large disparity in skill between the player and their opponent or having a similarly low ranged opponent. If I'm much better than my opponent then I'm going to win regardless, who cares about a particular build? If being limited to 600 range isn't a big deal in mid lane then why don't I just pick Veigar and abuse his ridiculous late game? In a more realistic scenario, where your opponent is at a similar skill level to yourself, arguments like 'well I'll be able to dodge almost all their abilities' don't fly.

Your build will lose in a farm war as well as a harass war. You're focusing on a single target ability. If someone wants to push you back to your turret and go gank one of the other lanes there's very little you can do besides ping a warning. You can't zone without opening yourself up to both harass and ganks, W isn't absolute protection, especially as most mids have their own CC they can use to lock you down for their jungler. Your late game is also significantly weaker because you're even more dependent on being at short range without having significantly more survivability.


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Regulas

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12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfidiousAlbion View Post
Don't be snide, I know how to lane. I just don't see the value in a build that's completely dependent on a large disparity in skill between the player and their opponent or having a similarly low ranged opponent. If I'm much better than my opponent then I'm going to win regardless, who cares about a particular build? If being limited to 600 range isn't a big deal in mid lane then why don't I just pick Veigar and abuse his ridiculous late game? In a more realistic scenario, where your opponent is at a similar skill level to yourself, arguments like 'well I'll be able to dodge almost all their abilities' don't fly.

Your build will lose in a farm war as well as a harass war. You're focusing on a single target ability. If someone wants to push you back to your turret and go gank one of the other lanes there's very little you can do besides ping a warning. You can't zone without opening yourself up to both harass and ganks, W isn't absolute protection, especially as most mids have their own CC they can use to lock you down for their jungler. Your late game is also significantly weaker because you're even more dependent on being at short range without having significantly more survivability.
If I were being snide I would point out that you seem to think because you couldn't run Power that it is automatically impossible for anyone to use it.

Why does there have to be a skill disparity in order to dodge skillshots at long range? I'm not saying I'm going to dodge everything, but there is no way I'm going to be hit by everything either.

You seem to be assuming worst case scenarios, rather then the average results.

W isn't guaranteed but then nothing is guaranteed, your argument is like saying: "if you flash to escape you could still die so there is no point to taking flash", W is still very effective at countering ganks, and is reliable enough on average to allow going further in and this is even without counting the speed boost.

Short range mid requires A: being able to beat your opponent 1v1 fight, and B: ways of dealing with ganks despite how deep you have to charge.

Veigar's Q deals the same dmg as Vik's but lacks the shield which is a 40% disparity in overall power, beyond that they are very similar heros, however vieg also can't upgrade to have the same level of maneuverability, and his stun has "less coverage" since if a target is only stunned at the edge. He is therefore worse at trying to control the lane in such a manner as Vik can.


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HydraLegends

Junior Member

12-28-2012

i think viktor is fine how he is because i always do really well early mid and late game with him, idk why people want him to be reworked or buffed, in my opinion his a good overall champion so idk why people would want him to get buffed, if he isnt you style of champion to play then dont play him, if you cant get good with him then dont play him at all plain and simple


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BlahDS

Junior Member

12-29-2012

I think viktor is fine, in fact i personally think he might be overpowered. The W and R really change the course of teamfights.

However i believe they need to definitely imporve power augment and gravity augments.
I would RARELY get gravity, and power is bad cuz you have to get close to use it...


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