Force of Nature

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SirGregarious

Senior Member

12-24-2012

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That would be true if FoN was balanced around solely tanks picking it up - which is untrue, as you'll hear many languished cries about being unable to be built on fighters.
I'm unable to tell what you're suggesting. It sounds you're trying to say if it was balanced around tanks picking it up, fighters would have a field day with it. But it also sounds like you're trying to say that if it is balanced the opposite way, that it wouldn't be usable by tanks.
I never heard anyone cry about Force of Nature on Jarvan. Singed? Sure. Lee Sin and Riven? Not once. The only "fighter" I consistently picked it up on was Irelia, but that's mainly because she's a disaster all together. I would pick it up on others if they had an AP top and mid along with a high damaging AP jungler. Chances are though, aside from those special fighter cases, only tanks facing high magic damage teams ever picked it up. And even then, others opted for Aegis and such.

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Offering Tier 3 boot enchants that augment speed, minor MS items like Twin Shadows *and* having Force of Nature in the game is overkill on movement speed in the stacked case. There's never a scenario where movement speed isn't the best statistic you could have in terms of positioning and a team fight.
Isn't that why there are diminishing returns on movement speed? Movement speed is fantastic an all, probably one of the strongest stats in the game, but if you're foregoing other statistics solely to get more of one, aren't you hindering yourself? A tank with 600 movement speed is still peelable. If the tank is too fast, then their team can't keep up. If the tank is being peeled and keeps coming back, chances are they're not actually helping their team and/or dying quickly due to multiple bad initiates. No matter how fast you are, a bad initiate is still a bad initiate and can still cost a game. Positioning in a team fight is much more crucial to the likes of an AD carry than a tank. If this were a case of a carry getting infinite speed, it would be a problem. Tanks having infinite speed? They're still able to be kited and they're still able to be peeled via team effort, just like they are now.

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Some examples of AP Control - Swain, Anivia, Amumu, Singed, Rumble - they are predominantly characters who control space around themselves very well - but don't offer the amount of burst that other characters do.
I see. I would have to agree with you that the item seems very appealing on those characters now that I know how it works with DoT. Those who have built in slows and do DoT. But I have to say that I don't believe it to be entire optimal on Amumu and Singed. It still sounds like a specific case item though. Maybe I'll see it differently as the season plays out some more. I've only tried it myself on a few characters, but I've seen it done on a lot of them.

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When we made Liandry's - we actually were intent on binding it to Rylai's - that's why Liandry's has the slow cause in the first place - we designed them as sister items to one another - good with each other but not overbearing when stacked. This also let us make the base case for Liandry's fairly weak on most burst casters - because it was designed with sister effects in mind.
That might be why I feel like it's a weaker item. I need to be a character that a Haunting Guise sounds like a good rush on to get the full effect, and I need to be someone who has a slow or I would build Rylai's on so that I don't feel like I'm not fully using the item. The potential is there, but not always accessible.

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We actually put in Homeguard to exclusively keep this strategy in check.
That doesn't change much of anything though. For all non-Shens, it still means your team is down a guy and the enemy team either has to try to make a move then or they have to come stop you. For all Shens, if the team tries to stop you, you were still successful. If the team doesn't try to stop you, you're about to join your team for the fight.

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If they cast out of range of you and enter the range of the aura, they don't get the CDR. If they cast in range of you and exit, they get the fully benefit even not in the aura.

This makes it weird - because half the time, they don't get the CDR effect because they have to do other things like initiate, or kite, or etc.

Making it global would actually help this quite a bit - but I'm questioning as to whether Soul Shroud will then be seen as a 'must-buy' on someone.

That rewrite is actually fairly large - but also doesn't quite produce the effect of CDR that we currently have. Rate increases are of equal power no matter how much rate increase you have - while CDR gets exponentially more powerful the more CDR you have - so hard spec'ing into CDR gives far better returns (and that's what allows it to function well as a build.)
That sounds exactly like how I thought it worked. That encouraged me to be part of the team when I had it. To make sure everybody gets their effect, I would always be nearby helping em out. Similar to having Aegis, there's no point in having it if I'm not next to my team. Even just like a big size increase in the aura of it would help fix that problem. Bumping it up to like 1500 would ensure that everyone got the benefit if you're nearby. A 10% global CDR aura sounds very godlike in my opinion. If it gave other reasonable stats, I see no reason why something like that wouldn't be core on a lot of supports.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-24-2012
41 of 41 Riot Posts

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Gotta say xyph, posting here at work about to get off in a few minutes, even though I and many many posters aren't really pleased/comprehend the reasons, I'm glad you are staying up late and conversing and keeping this discussion alive, are you at work drowning in coffee or at home right now?
Just losing sleep and tracking on what additional support S3 needs - as usual. Negative controversies are the best ones because it usually means there's something fundamental that's missed and wrong.

No one really gets served by claiming their isn't a problem where there is one, for example - the question is the transition between what the actual problem is from how people feel. The two main takeaways that I want to try is figuring out how to get high-end regeneration back in some form and that we need to do shifts on some of the lesser MR items to be less AP centric and more resistance centric to set them on a better footing.


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ninjarock

Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelflame View Post
And tell me this, on the case of cold steel passive. Why? Carries just ignore you if they can, and if they cant, just tend to back off. So... overall this does nothing. Tanks have no "threat" in league currently, and there is no reason to focus them. Current popular CASTER champs tend to just stack Penetration and resistances, and pop squishes, again, ignoring tanks usually... while still doing more than enough to them to really scare them off via AoE. Carries NEED a counter, as they have the hardest scaling in the game (as has been stated thousands of times). Don't take out one of the methods of counting them. It is counterproductive to tanks when they can't.

Also, I still feel BC is a problem. On its own, it is ok. The fact it exist side by side with Last Whisper is problematic. There is NO reason it should boost your teams damage. It should be selfish. It can keep its stacking mechanic, BUT make it like this. Only someone wielding a Black Cleaver can take advantage of the Arpen shred it gives. This means that if an AD carry wants to make use of the effect, they at least have to pay to use that 30% armor redux, VS getting it free of charge from his tanky dps frontliner who tends to rush it anyway as a first or second item. THIS is what leads to armor being worthless. The fact that the enemy team can reduce the stat that's gold effectiveness was already reduced hard by over 50% without trying. This also is why I think AD casters became so popular. It used to be that stacking one damage type lead to problems with counterbuilding being possible. Enemy stacked AD champs? Have every member of the team get armor and you countered it. Enemy stacking AP? Get a decent chunk of MR. Now though, with the fact you can stack AD champs and them NOT give the penalty of just counterbuilding by the enemy team leads to this problematic scenario, which, when comboed with mage nerfs overall, has just lead to it only being viable to stack armor and hp... Except the fact that AD carries counter HP stacking, and so much rampant Arpen existing countering Armor.
1) Counter to ADC is tank
2) ADC scales really well
3) Tank must scale well to be able to counter ADC at all stages of the game, OR shut down ADC early so they are useless late (not very fun for ADC).
4) Tanks can't earn gold well
5) for them to scale as well as an ADC, they have to have passive stats/great kit, or effective items.

Armor pen. was designed as counterplay to tanks stacking a defense, now there is no counterplay to armor pen. stacking because it's everywhere and easy to get, plus its still effective against enemies without armor, or only some. It shuts tanks out of scaling as effectively as ADC's because it's so powerful, when the original design was to keep tanks from getting out of hand. Armor pen. probably needs to be looked at for nerfs to make tanks more viable.


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MidbossK

Member

12-24-2012

Just to suggest something. You mentioned how an HP Chalice is a bad idea, right? For all those same reasons stated, Maw of M. is the exact same, with except with AD. Change the "Gain AD if you are almost dead" part of it. Especially since fights dont last nearly as long as S2. Maybe its just me, but the item seems it suffers the same problems as the HP Chalice idea. - Sorry 'bout the off-topic. Just popped in my head. The quote I'm refering to was:

"A health chalice is something we've experimented on - but in general, it kind of just lied to you about how well you could kill someone and actually kind of pissed people off, more often or not - because the better you poked someone, the worse you felt about the poke since you saw their health chunk up." Replace "health" with "AD" and you'll see what I mean.


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Steelflame

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Xyph, can you respond to my post on the previous page? It sort of is how I feel about tanks in the current league, perhaps you can give your input on my wall o' text.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
This item exists - it's called Randuin's Omen. While it doesn't accomplish the goal by directly making you faster - it accomplishes the goal by making the carry slower if he attempts to kite you - and has a wide-range active slow to pin them for a duration once you are there.



Replace Surge with Exhaust and you'll be much more likely to get that kill, in the vast majority of cases - especially if you have the offensive mastery.
Atams 5% MS PLS. That would be so epic.


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ninjarock

Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
There's generally a lot more health options than not - For example, if you buy an early Giant's belt / Kindlegem - it'll never dead end into an item that is absolutely awful. Most of the best defensive items start from a Ruby Crystal or a Giant's belt option - and frequently you'll want a Giant's Belt item and a Ruby Crystal item on your final build somewhere. (EG - Omen, Locket of the Iron Solari, Visage, Golem Soul, etc.)

It should be more piecemeal than that - most likely opting for an early Giant's Belt or Ruby Crystal/Kindlegem into whatever the mid-game serves.
Very true, but If I get a giants belt, it's probably because I want/need the upgrade fast. When you need health, you usually need a lot of it, and 180-200 won't be enough. the 400 from giants belt is great, and sometimes i'll hold onto that while I build something else, but usually its better to upgrade that for the bonus health (warmogs gives another 600 plus passive) while on non-tank champions the health doesn't seem as important or feel like it needs to be rushed. So maybe there should be an intermediate item for health items like warmogs, either giants belt + ruby crystal, or ruby crystal and rejuvination bead?

I haven't tried buying both giants belt and ruby crystal/kindlegem and holding onto them (unless i'm rushing warmog), because having two tier one items in the inventory without plans to upgrade soon means no space for items like wards or pots while I build the other item I may need. Yes there are a lot of health options, but when building HP it feels like its better to rush the full item (which usually has a desirable passive) than have a couple lower HP value items taking up slots. So maybe there should be an intermediate item for health items like warmogs, either giants belt + ruby crystal, or ruby crystal and rejuvination bead?

On a side note, tanks have 3 highly important stats they have to focus on (HP, armor, and MR), while ADC and AP usually have two (AD or AS as focus, with Armor Pen. or AP/Magic pen.), which might contribute to why they have such a problem. It's alleviated slightly by items that give two stats (sunfire gives hp and armor, bulwark gives a little of everything), but for the most part the best ones are high cost single stat items (warmog/randuin/FH[CDR/mana is useful, but not a priority, the passive/armor is]). A tank isn't likely to get the gold for 3 high stat items (HP, armor, MR), so they have to lose one.


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Pitufito Dell

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Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yx View Post
I don't know why this item was removed. As far as I'm concerned, it was the only item I ever built for MR. Now, I'm torn between something that gives you Mana + HP, and something that gives you Attack Damage.
Bulwark is pretty much a heavy defensive item, and grant all around defenses. Also, HP whit some MR is a mage counter in the same way that heavy MR, or even more.

FoN was a solid MR item that scaled great with all tanks. I struggle even building MR anymore because I feel like there's more important things to get rather than Banshee's or Scimitar. Was broken, cause litteraly gave 3 anti mage stats. Whit most mages, taking down a Dr. Mundo was impossible, because of Force of Nature + Warmog.

If anyone has any tips on what they build for MR in S3, they'd greatly be appreciated, because right now, I'm having a hard time playing any tanks against heavy AP teams. Even when AP heavy teams are bad right now, Bulwark, Banshee (That you must get vs an AP heavy team...) Spirit Visage IS a good FoN substitute, even if you're not using the passive. And you ARE using the passive, cause of normal regen.

Tl;dr: Bring back FoN or a substitute. Tell me what you build for MR.

Edit: Downvotes for sharing an opinion and asking a question... GD is so kind.
Answer in bold.


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Raptamei

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by stickyshooZ View Post
Instead of giving some lame excuse that makes no sense, he could have just come out and said: "we think it's OP and its limiting the viability of other MR items."

There is no way you could argue with a straight face that FoN was ever considered a "bad buy."
I think that was the reason why it was removed in the first place. I don't know why Xypherous tried to cover it up, because it is much easier to agree that it is OP than that it is useless.


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Slash

Senior Member

12-24-2012

I feel so lost without FoN :'(