Force of Nature

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My Desired Name

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Give us FoN back!

It was one of my favorite items in the game. I still don't see any sufficient reasons as to why you removed it, other than "It's bad", and it obviously isn't, otherwise we wouldn't care.


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ninjarock

Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yeah, I fully agree we probably need a premium end-game health regeneration item - The trouble here is how to avoid making a premium *mid-game* rushed health regeneration item rather than a premium end-game health regeneration item.

I kind of want to try tripled passive regeneration on Warmog's if you haven't been damaged by champions in the last X seconds - but we'll see.
Probably not an option, but you could always lock an upgraded item until a certain time in the game (either an actual time, or after x turrets are gone from one side, etc.).

Warmogs idea sounds good.


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My Desired Name

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I kind of want to try tripled passive regeneration on Warmog's if you haven't been damaged by champions in the last X seconds - but we'll see.
Sounds good!


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Krynul

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjarock View Post
A 10% garunteed slow is hardly enough. Whats most likely to happen is that after you jump the enemy adc, they get out of your range and the enemy team mows you down (whether because of the team or just the adc shooting you), before you can even touch the adc, and your team can't get to the enemy backline to help kill the ad/ap carry because they've both kited the tank to the point that all he does is run slowly forward to his death. God forbid he be stunned. Then disingage is useless cuz he's already dead or slowed/stunned so he will be. Tanks are supposed to disrupt the enemy team and put the ad/ap carrry in a bad position. All they can do now is be a mild annoyance.

A 10% slow won't help you catch up to the adc kiting you with all this. Tanks have a hard job of sitting in the middle of an enemy team while absorbing all the damage and trying to catch that pesky carry. With damage items being buffed they fell even farther out of viability.
I've honestly been experiencing this a lot. Even last season I was struggling to counter build against these super fed carries when I'm expected to give all my gold to my carry. Now with their items being cheaper/more effective and mine being the opposite. I never feel tanky no matter how well I do. I feel like a walking roadbump instead of a tank. I only exist to distract the carry for a few seconds until my team gets their act together (if I last that long).


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-24-2012
21 of 41 Riot Posts

Quote:
You make a good point with that one. My big issue is that I'm slower than EVERYONE unless someone is attacking me (even then that's only relatively speaking). Honestly this isn't some single thing that upsets me. I've been upset with the way tanks and supports have been treated all last season. I'm glad supports got a lot of notice with this season, but I feel like tanks have been hurting for a good long time.
In general, tank itemization has been tricky because bruisers/fighters tend to steal it for themselves.

I think I might need to create two things: A high end-game regeneration item for tank sustain so they don't have to recall late game every other second (or retrofit warmog's or spirit visage into it) and some sort of stand-alone heavy resistance-based tenacity item that lets tanks get boots of swiftness/mobility with the alacrity enchant for additional speed if they need it.

Additionally on pure-tank itemization - there's a few mage/tank items that have too much AP and not enough tank stats. Liandry's Torment and Twin Shadows, for example - I think are both items that would be better fits for the game if the AP/Defense tilts were more towards the defensive side rather than the offensive side.

In the meantime - I'd actually suggest you try out an early boots of swiftness + alacrity enchantment and tell me how that goes and if it's actually good enough for your speed needs on Jungle Tanks.

Quote:
I've honestly been experiencing this a lot. Even last season I was struggling to counter build against these super fed carries when I'm expected to give all my gold to my carry. Now with their items being cheaper/more effective and mine being the opposite. I never feel tanky no matter how well I do. I feel like a walking roadbump instead of a tank. I only exist to distract the carry for a few seconds until my team gets their act together (if I last that long).
From what we've generally seen - the characters who do prioritize health become very very difficult to kill if they spike health early game and shift to more resistances as the game goes on. I know that tanks feeling weak are something we are currently watching and something we'll continue to watch as the preseason continues.


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lol I died again

Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Ah, I thought you were talking about Surge in the context of AD carries - not high burst assassins.

The answer on high burst assassins is that they don't really need additional support to murder someone - most high burst assassins need the opportunity, rather than the raw damage - hence why Flash is so popular on them.
My fault, I wasn't clear.

However, the purpose of burst assassins is to... burst.
Here's what happens: You fail to kill them. They Flash. You Flash. You kill them.
Two things are very important here.

The first - In order to do what you do what you're supposed to, you're forced to take Flash (or sometimes Ghost) in order to beat Flash.
You do not have a choice, because you often simply cannot instagib them. There is no choice.

Secondly, 1-3 seconds of overextending because you had to chase can leave you even more vulnerable.
The idea is to be revealed for as little as possible. Killing faster makes you safer. You cannot handle the backlash.

You take something one thing is good at, then amplify it, then amplify it further, then amplify it further, then keep amplifying it until it simply cannot be countered
(See: Rock Lee's inner gates).


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Aheadatime

Senior Member

12-24-2012

It is my contention that the reason for the removal of FoN, the increase in armor/MR prices, the decreased value of said resistances, and the desire to remove HP/5 as a highly valued tank stat late-game (as you said yourself, you'd like to move the HP/5 into a more toned down mid-game role) is that you guys simply want more killing and a faster-paced game altogether. Its exciting. It sells. It looks great in tourney play. Having an ali/malph/singed/rammus/mumu with FoN, warmogs, frozen heart, merc treads, etc, makes the game look 'stale' to devs and the whole PR/financial side to the game.

Hard to imagine these stats don't synergize well. You joked that the MS seemed irrelevant on an MR based item due to it usually being used for "taking out the AD carry?", as if having extra MS doesn't help in every single thing you do, including hunting down the ranged APC's who annoy the hell outta you from afar (lux), getting from lane to lane quicker, getting into the game from fountain quicker, and helping chase down stragglers after the teamfight subsides.

Never mind the MS. HP/5 and MR were the main two qualities people built this item for. You could, at times, even skip warmogs and opt for a frozen heart instead, netting you armor, MR, and HP/5 all in 2 items, with MS to boot. It was an incredibly useful item on tanky characters, and as i said, when combined with other tier3 tank-based items, made those innately tanky initiate characters harder to deal with. It strikes me as the sole reason you guys have done away with it.

You've (Riot, not you in particular) stated before that healing characters such as raka annoy you to no end due to making the game stale. Statements like these help give us an idea of where the devs are coming from; a fast-paced game with lots of action, generally high risk/reward, and a lack of anything that may derail this concept.

Even if you took the MS off completely and scaled down the MR a tad bit, the community would welcome back the item enthusiastically. In my experiences, it seems that the majority of us simply adored the fact that one item combined a good deal of HP/5 as well as MR, saving item slots and letting you itemize in a tanky fashoin against AP-heavy teams neatly and in accordance with any other 5 items you desired. Again, i can't stress the 'single item slot' concept enough. Yes, there are other MR options out there now (none as comparatively potent), and yes the passive was switched to warmogs, but this is a hassle when combined with the overall resistance nerf s3 handed us.


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DrTemptragon

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Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I kind of want to try tripled passive regeneration on Warmog's if you haven't been damaged by champions in the last X seconds - but we'll see.
Bring back Warmog's stacking and have it evolve, like Muramana/Seraph's Embrace?


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Kizuna

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Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yeah, I fully agree we probably need a premium end-game health regeneration item - The trouble here is how to avoid making a premium *mid-game* rushed health regeneration item rather than a premium end-game health regeneration item.

I kind of want to try tripled passive regeneration on Warmog's if you haven't been damaged by champions in the last X seconds - but we'll see.
While I don't disagree that would be a decent idea, previously another experience that was a solid reason to buy it was to be less afraid of DOT killing you when you engage.

There were those periods as a tank that felt good to survive an ignite or Swain or other damage over time by a slim margin because your "in-battle" regen was also in effect.

Is that considered overpowered, in retrospect? I feel like with Liandry's Torment in the game that in-battle regen should also have a place. Often times it's just ridiculous to consider engaging if you take a poke or 2, because now you've burned off so much HP that a full commit will almost definitely kill you.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-24-2012
22 of 41 Riot Posts

Quote:
(as you said yourself, you'd like to move the HP/5 into a more toned down mid-game role)
Actually, this is the opposite of what I've been saying. I want end-game HP/5 to be strong - but the problem is how to avoid end-game HP/5 items from being overpowered mid-game HP/5 items.

Quote:
Is that considered overpowered, in retrospect? I feel like with Liandry's Torment in the game that in-battle regen should also have a place. Often times it's just ridiculous to consider engaging if you take a poke or 2, because now you've burned off so much HP that a full commit will almost definitely kill you.
In general, a lot of the worst cases in our game tends to result from in-combat regeneration being high enough to negate the outgoing damage of the defenders in question, especially in snowball cases. It's why I keep talking about trying to keep away end-game regeneration from affecting the mid-game - because when we see end-game regeneration values in the mid-game (perhaps someone got to 18 fairly early, for example) - that's when those character types tend to rapidly degrade teamfights.

Quote:
Secondly, 1-3 seconds of overextending because you had to chase can leave you even more vulnerable.
The idea is to be revealed for as little as possible. Killing faster makes you safer. You cannot handle the backlash.

You take something one thing is good at, then amplify it, then amplify it further, then amplify it further, then keep amplifying it until it simply cannot be countered
Unfortunately, we tend not to support playstyles whose ideal circumstance is that the opponent has zero possible responses. Time is the one of most important pieces to ensuring that players fight each other rather than racing for statistics. Since we're primarily a player versus player game - we'd like the game to be about interactions between players - rather than a race to make one player invalid by having enough burst damage that the opponent has no responses in the time frame you are performing in.