Force of Nature

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Krynul

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiance View Post
Then you are a useless brusier/tank who deals no damage or CC ahaha
I think we're talking about just trying to stay with the fight. If the carry isn't attacking the tank with randuins then the tank is at a movespeed disadvantage. Also between fights the tank has no recourse at all. Getting across the map, staying with his team. He can stick with carries who are stupid enough to attack him, but anything else is kind of a no go. Most of my tanks top out at 395-405 ms. Most of my carry builds push 435+. Unless I'm Singed or Garen, or my Taric (thank god for the support tree) I seriously struggle to get to objectives with my team when I really need to be the first one on the scene.

Of course this is assuming that the carry doesn't have a frozen mallet or any kind of slow of their own in which case the tank is still invalid in terms of keeping up. Randuin's only puts a 10% slow on them anyways, which is essentially Sejuani's passive. Last time I played Sej (admittedly a LONG time ago) I seem to remember the enemy carry still getting away from me because that 10% slow was pathetic and I'd already used permafrost.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-24-2012
19 of 41 Riot Posts

Quote:
But as a tank I want them to hit me instead of my team (so less yay), and they want to avoid hitting me which makes it again difficult for me to catch them. Basically the item only works in that manner if the enemy is doing the one thing they shouldn't.
Potentially but I'm finding it a really difficult time to visualize when an AD carry would be simultaneously attacking members of your team and running away from you fast enough that you need a movement speed boost to catch up.

In short, it seems like if the AD carry is outputting damage to the rest of your team (typically behind you) then you should have no problem catching up - or if you are having problems catching up, he's probably running away from you and outputting no damage which again accomplishes your goal as a tank to zone the carry out of the fight and reducing the effect that the AD carry will have on your team.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Quote:
Of course this is assuming that the carry doesn't have a frozen mallet or any kind of slow of their own in which case the tank is still invalid in terms of keeping up. Randuin's only puts a 10% slow on them anyways, which is essentially Sejuani's passive. Last time I played Sej (admittedly a LONG time ago) I seem to remember the enemy carry still getting away from me because that 10% slow was pathetic and I'd already used permafrost.
This is true regardless of whether or not the tank has an 8% movement speed buff, however - so the Frozen Mallet case, while interesting, is still invalid here as FoN would be equally poor in this situation.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kizuna

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Can we please get a premium endgame health regen item into the works, then?

My main purpose of getting FoN was the massive in-field regen after stacking HP. It felt really good.

Especially after breaking an engage, and while most teammates either have to B or retreat to jungle for lifesteal, I could simply go to some lane and push or threaten objectives, and just during the time I spent offscreen or not in battle, I would regenerate enough HP to feel safe should I need to disengage.

Ergo so I thought the name supported, a "force of nature".

Warmogs is really unsatisfying in comparison.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-24-2012
20 of 41 Riot Posts

Quote:
Can we please get a premium endgame health regen item into the works, then?

My main purpose of getting FoN was the massive in-field regen after stacking HP. It felt really good.

Especially after breaking an engage, and while most teammates either have to B or retreat to jungle for lifesteal, I could simply go to some lane and push or threaten objectives, and just during the time I spent offscreen or not in battle, I would regenerate enough HP to feel safe should I need to disengage.
Yeah, I fully agree we probably need a premium end-game health regeneration item - The trouble here is how to avoid making a premium *mid-game* rushed health regeneration item rather than a premium end-game health regeneration item.

I kind of want to try tripled passive regeneration on Warmog's if you haven't been damaged by champions in the last X seconds - but we'll see.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Krynul

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Potentially but I'm finding it a really difficult time to visualize when an AD carry would be simultaneously attacking members of your team and running away from you fast enough that you need a movement speed boost to catch up.

In short, it seems like if the AD carry is outputting damage to the rest of your team (typically behind you) then you should have no problem catching up - or if you are having problems catching up, he's probably running away from you and outputting no damage which again accomplishes your goal as a tank to zone the carry out of the fight and reducing the effect that the AD carry will have on your team.

Is there something I'm missing here?



This is true regardless of whether or not the tank has an 8% movement speed buff, however - so the Frozen Mallet case, while interesting, is still invalid here as FoN would be equally poor in this situation.
You make a good point with that one. My big issue is that I'm slower than EVERYONE unless someone is attacking me (even then that's only relatively speaking). Honestly this isn't some single thing that upsets me. I've been upset with the way tanks and supports have been treated all last season. I'm glad supports got a lot of notice with this season, but I feel like tanks have been hurting for a good long time.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ZerglingOne

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Words in the first post.
I feel like you've buffed poking too much with its removal though. Sure it was somewhat situational, but so was lots of poke damage. FoN was actually both a direct and potent counter to any and all poke damage from any damage type. This is because it guaranteed 8HP + .35% of your max hp every second while granting movement speed to dodge the impending poke.

Sure there's still Warmog's + SV, but this is definitely more of an early game combo at best since the % health regen is just simply not enough on its own to sustain you. You never see the +46 pop up every half second on Mundo or +60ish on Garen that you used to see.

Compare the 2 combos before and after nerfs.

A Warmog's/FoN character had +70-80 HP/5, +950-1350HP (iirc), and +.35% HP/s which added at least 20HP/5 from just the 2 items. So you have 2 items that ensure you regen 20HP/s while protecting you from magic damage poke on top of that.

Now with SV and Warmog's you get +1200 HP, and a whopping (woohoo) .36% of your max HP/s. That number on the end looks higher, but lacks the 16HP/s the original 2 could give you, so unless you're a 2 hour game Sion, it's not happening. If you're keeping score, it amounts (from just the items) to about 20HP/5. Very weak by comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yeah, I fully agree we probably need a premium end-game health regeneration item - The trouble here is how to avoid making a premium *mid-game* rushed health regeneration item rather than a premium end-game health regeneration item.

I kind of want to try tripled passive regeneration on Warmog's if you haven't been damaged by champions in the last X seconds - but we'll see.
Edit: I like this idea, give it the ol' Heart of Tarrasque treatment.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FaerKhan

Senior Member

12-24-2012

[QUOTE=Xypherous;
I kind of want to try tripled passive regeneration on Warmog's if you haven't been damaged by champions in the last X seconds - but we'll see.[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't that make everybody Garen?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xulsigae

Senior Member

12-24-2012

How is a tank to stick to a high mobility ADC such as Ezrael?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MandyMemory

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyMemory View Post
I actually feel that this would be best solved by making flask cheaper, as opposed to raising the price.
If it was cheaper and you could get boots (Or even just cloth) without going deep into utility, people might opt for that route other than just stacking potions.

You can always buy like 13 potions if you really wanted regen. I think it's mainly that flask is a great starting item, but there's nothing else you can get with your starting gold since it's awkwardly priced.
Or I guess you could raise the price and raise the number of charges, but that changes the way the item plays outside of the first buy.

edit: meant to edit my old post. it's late. oh well.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ninjarock

Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm more referring to the guaranteed passive movement speed slow proc that it has now for the catching up to the AD carry part.

Granted, I suppose they could never attack you while you run up to them but if they're constantly running - I think you've accomplished your goal as a tank to begin with, for the most part.
A 10% garunteed slow is hardly enough. Whats most likely to happen is that after you jump the enemy adc, they get out of your range and the enemy team mows you down (whether because of the team or just the adc shooting you), before you can even touch the adc, and your team can't get to the enemy backline to help kill the ad/ap carry because they've both kited the tank to the point that all he does is run slowly forward to his death. God forbid he be stunned. Then disingage is useless cuz he's already dead or slowed/stunned so he will be. Tanks are supposed to disrupt the enemy team and put the ad/ap carrry in a bad position. All they can do now is be a mild annoyance.

A 10% slow won't help you catch up to the adc kiting you with all this. Tanks have a hard job of sitting in the middle of an enemy team while absorbing all the damage and trying to catch that pesky carry. With damage items being buffed they fell even farther out of viability.