Force of Nature

First Riot Post
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Razor 9mm

Senior Member

12-23-2012

I never felt "awkward" buying it. It felt good on my tanky champs and all of the stats were nice to have. So what if the stats don't really mesh together, people bought it because it worked with the champion. That's all that should matter.

Maybe make Banshee's spell shield an active, similar to Sivir's or Nocturne's. Right now that item just doesn't feel as powerful as it should.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-23-2012
3 of 41 Riot Posts

Quote:
So what if the stats don't really mesh together, people bought it because it worked with the champion. That's all that should matter.
No, it doesn't - not when one of the primary statistic is a stat that is valued across *all* characters (movement speed).

When an item favors a particular character in a class but also contains a ubiquitous statistic that no characters in that class can easily itemize for - you create odd swings where some characters are simply faster for no reason other than the item is awkwardly statted for other characters.

If you look at the current movement speed options (Shadows / Alacrity / Swiftness / Mobility) - they are ubiquitous and universal enough to be applied across most tanks - and that most tanks have at least one option they can choose to opt into high movement speed.


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CupcakeRaptorr

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Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
No doubt - but we chose to favor the path that most tanks would have moderate income streams rather assume they would have high income streams due to the nature of the tank role. We basically optimized their items around flexible mid-tier items rather than assume a high gold baseline and that they would hit 6 items. We figured that, in the vast majority of games, tanks should be building piecemeal to react to their situation - not merely opting for a static build-path that discounts who / what the enemy is. This meant favoring smaller items rather than slot-efficiency for the most part, because you have to factor in what the opponent is rushing.

Watching how the AP mid is doing and deciding what your primary mitigation path is going to be is tantamount. Bulwark, for example, is very effective against high AP characters - but pretty ineffective against mages who rushed penetration
which is the problem with resists now. Pen is too good on ad and especially AP. That is why most tanks are stacking health now because resistances are bad


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PvtBlue

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Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
No doubt - but we chose to favor the path that most tanks would have moderate income streams rather assume they would have high income streams due to the nature of the tank role. We basically optimized their items around flexible mid-tier items rather than assume a high gold baseline and that they would hit 6 items. We figured that, in the vast majority of games, tanks should be building piecemeal to react to their situation - not merely opting for a static build-path that discounts who / what the enemy is. This meant favoring smaller items rather than slot-efficiency for the most part, because you have to factor in what the opponent is rushing.

Watching how the AP mid is doing and deciding what your primary mitigation path is going to be is tantamount. Bulwark, for example, is very effective against high AP characters - but pretty ineffective against mages who rushed penetration
How is removing the option improving the game though? Wouldn't it make sense to leave it in? I guess I just don't understand why it was necessary to remove it. If a tank is doing very well, they should have the items available to take advantage of that just as much as the rest of the roles, right?


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Vanra

Senior Member

12-23-2012

I can see no downsides to FoN. You'd buy it because it has the most MR in the game. Assuming you're the tank, you also likely have a lot of hp, and this item was the only way for you to recover HP easily without lifesteal or going b. And as for the movespeed, well, who wouldn't want that?

I get the impression that the reason it was really removed is because Riot hates defense. Hence why all the defense items are now weaker, cost more, and are basically useless in the face of the armor shred or true damage everyone has these days and items like black cleaver et. al anyhow.


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Aria Sachou

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Hey Xyph, are they any plans for Nasus?
I feel with the Philostone Nerf, The Frozen Heart nerf, and the Fon's nerf. Building Nasus is much harder now.
Especially against the new Ap, with Laundry's
Could we get a buff on Nasus's base stats or something?


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JHVH

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
No, it doesn't - not when one of the primary statistic is a stat that is valued across *all* characters (movement speed).

When an item favors a particular character in a class but also contains a ubiquitous statistic that no characters in that class can easily itemize for - you create odd swings where some characters are simply faster for no reason other than the item is awkwardly statted for other characters.

If you look at the current movement speed options (Shadows / Alacrity / Swiftness / Mobility) - they are ubiquitous and universal enough to be applied across most tanks - and that most tanks have at least one option they can choose to opt into high movement speed.
Xypherous, could you clearly state again that it was too strong on Bruisers/Fighters, and this is the primary reason for concern about it? I know that's primarily how I used it.

I do miss it, but I can see how in this season the stats would be insanely OP when stacked with other movespeed, and with hp5 at such a premium.

What about allowing Runic Bulwark to be built from more than one build path, one involving negatron? That dynamic hasn't been done before, so you don't have to address that.


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Grøve

Senior Member

12-23-2012

xyph, voli bear loves move speed, regen, and MR, i miss FoN sooo much on volibear


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Issyl

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous;32780220
2. You need movement speed somehow on your tank character[/B

However, again, why are you paying 1900 for a bunch of HP/5 and Magic Resistance when you need something for *speed* in a current game.
What the hell kind of tank "looks" for movement speed? That's a weak reason right there! We get FoN for the MR and the HP5! The movement speed is just a neat bonus! Who the hell decides to get FoN for it's movement speed bonus???


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-23-2012
4 of 41 Riot Posts

Quote:
How is removing the option improving the game though? Wouldn't it make sense to leave it in? I guess I just don't understand why it was necessary to remove it. If a tank is doing very well, they should have the items available to take advantage of that just as much as the rest of the roles, right?
You typically have to balance things around their maximum abusive potential - rather than their minimum abuse potential. Which means that, for example, the Alacrity Enchantment or Swiftness upgrades can't exist in the power level that they are currently at.

By having such statistics on an item that was only good if you prize high regeneration, you unnecessarily degrade the power level on every other item that shares statistics in that category or else the stacked case becomes abusive. Then, when we inevitably nerf the abuse case - the entire spectrum crashes as a result.

Quote:
What the hell kind of tank "looks" for movement speed? That's a weak reason right there! We get FoN for the MR and the HP5! The movement speed is just a neat bonus! Who the hell decides to get FoN for it's movement speed bonus???
This is *exactly* the problem with FoN. Generally, you will find many camps on FoN, each of which doesn't care about 1 out of the 3 statistics on the item.