Force of Nature

First Riot Post
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Issyl

Senior Member

12-23-2012

+1
Loved this item too much on Hecarim. And I'm a damn Hecarim player!


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Krynul

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by YuriKitten View Post
It's not supposed to be equal to. However, whenever you bought FoN, it was either for the MR or for the health regen passive, with the other stat being just a nice little bonus. The health regen passive in particular was not that useful unless you were also building Warmog's. Now, you can get that lovely health regen passive along with a massive amount of HP without having to pay extra/fill up two inventory slots, and you can do so even if you're against an essentially all-physical team.

-Most- players in season 2 were buying Abyssal on tanks that had any AP scaling instead of FoN because Abyssal is quite a bit cheaper and increases their damage output through both +AP and the mr shred aura (which also helps increase the damage of your APCs, many of which are too long range to really benefit from having their own Abyssal), and tanks often need that extra damage to help make themselves something that can't simply be ignored, especially tanks like Cho'gath who also have pretty decent AP scaling, and most of the true tanks do magic damage for what damage they actually deal (such as Leona, and Abyssal would help her passive do even more damage due to the aura).

Honestly, I loved FoN also, but I got to where I was pretty much never buying it except on Mundo because it was just too expensive, and Mundo was the only champ it truly synergized well with, where you were always wanting all the stats on it and making good use of all of them.

On most any other tank, you were wasting a lot of the item's stats. More often than not, you'd just buy the Negatron cloak and wait forever before upgrading it, which means you only really needed a Neg Cloak's worth of MR, making pretty much anything else that builds out of Neg Cloak and is significantly cheaper than FoN a better option.
Actually the number one reason why I bought it was movement speed. I loved being able to keep up in team fights. Movement speed was so hard to come by on tanks and there's nothing more frustrating than being completely unable to stay with your team, escape enemies, or chase down survivors (you're a tank so you're a likely survivor in all honesty).

Fine if they want to nerf regen then they could have nerfed the stats. That's fair if that's their design goal. I'm so tired of seeing people say that warmog's now replaces force of nature. It doesn't. Putting a gimped version of Force of Nature's regen on warmog's defeats the purpose. Warmog's had it's OWN regeneration when it combination with force of nature created MASSIVE regeneration. You're just throwing out one source of regeneration and adding another with the new combo. It wasn't moved onto another item, it REPLACED another piece of the formula. Yes it's a bit stronger on warmog's now than it was on force of nature just alone, but it doesn't mean "all that lovely" health regen is still available.

The one thing I'll give you is that I never rushed force of nature. I simply had other things to get to, and as a top laner MR was rarely in high demand for me. Once the roaming started though it became VITAL for keeping up with the pace of both teams, keeping my health up, and making sure I could take hits from the AP carry that I was now dealing with. In cases where I DID need MR it was one of the first things I'd rush. If I had to deal with a Shen or a Malphite top you better believe I'd pump out a FoN as soon as possible.

Abyssal Scepter is nice, but I build it on such few champions honestly. I don't think it was as wide spread as you make it out to be. I honestly only built it on Cho, Vlad, and Amumu. Unless the champion has exceptionally high scaling and can benefit from defenses, then I'd in general ignore it. I could probably have built it on malphite, but I prefer pure tank malphite myself, AP malphite was never my style. In the end it has an entirely different function from Force of Nature, and there is nothing in the game that really truly replaces force of nature.

Warmog's heals you slightly faster than it used to, yes that's nice.
Spirit visage also helps heal, and has a bit more MR now yes that's nice.
runic bulwark has slightly less mr, and is a great item for sure.

but what do I build on a tank for movement speed? Twin Shadows? It's a ****ty abyssal scepter with two situational slows and **** stats. My tanks are now forced to look into these options, or heavily consider suboptimal items like trinity force or phantom dancer.


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Krynul

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anivia 0r AFK View Post
+1
Loved this item too much on Hecarim. And I'm a damn Hecarim player!
God bless you... I am so sorry about season three man. How you holding up?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-23-2012
1 of 41 Riot Posts

Sure - I can take a stab at this.

The magic resistance option for tanks currently are:


Runic Bulwark
Spirit Visage
Banshee's Veil
Mikael's Crucible

AP Tanks also have: Abyssal Scepter, Twin Shadows

Roughly half of the items in this pool build out of a Negatron Cloak (Abyssal / Visage / Veil) while the other half build out of Null Magic (Runic, Crucible, Shadows)

There isn't quite a concept as AD Tank as anyone with this classification turns out to be a fighter more often than not.

The movement speed options for tanks currently are the same as most other characters in the game, by intent:


Wraith Collar
Alacrity Enchantment

Jungle Tanks additional get two additional options, due to the fact that Golem Soul grants Tenacity and can thus sub out Mercury Treads for additional options:

Swiftness Boots
Mobility Boots

As for HP/5 - that statistic has been admittedly unsupported as a late-game statistic - mostly because we raised Strength of Spirit a tier up - This change hasn't been as effective as I'd actually liked it to have been for support end-game HP/5 without mid-game HP/5 and it's something that I'd want to take a look at in the future.

The reason for removing FoN are as follows - here are the typical cases you'd purchase FoN:


1. You need MR - and you need it now.


However - why are you paying 1900 for an additional Null-Magic Mantle's worth of MR over Negatron Cloak? This meant that the best MR option was to go double Negatron Cloak or Aegis + Negatron Cloak. Considering that Aegis was cost-efficient by itself in terms of statistic strength and that the lone Negatron Cloak could always be upgraded to Abyssals - this meant that optimal MR was always going to include Negatron Cloak sitting in your inventory without a build.

2. You need movement speed somehow on your tank character


However, again, why are you paying 1900 for a bunch of HP/5 and Magic Resistance when you need something for *speed* in a current game. This simply impacts casters negatively - because if tanks are balanced around always having an additional 76 MR for their movement speed options - almost every source of magic damage needs to be absurd (or conversely, there cannot be other movement speed options)

Speed being attached to a primary resistance counter-item is always going to be awkward - if you need movement speed ubiquitously - unless you fight the perfect composition, you are always basically screwing yourself if this is your primary movement speed source.

3. You prize HP/5 as a statistic.


This is really where the crux of the main argument lies. If you are a player who thinks highly of HP/5 as a statistic - then Force of Nature made sense because that is the primary function Force of Nature did well - otherwise, if you were actually optimizing MR - you built twin Aegis and a Negatron Cloak (which would turn into Abyssal).

However, HP/5 is a very *poor* statistic coupled with burst mitigation and movement speed. One is a set of statistics for primary initiators - the other is a set of statistics for dedicated siegers - Force of Nature was suboptimal unless broken with additional sources of Health (such as Warmog's Armor, for example) - However, this particular pairing is (as many people have pointed out in terms of what champion they miss Force of Nature on) a dedicated Bruiser/Fighter path - one that we don't really particularly need / want to support given how durability focused those characters can get.

Quote:
It's a ****ty abyssal scepter with two situational slows and **** stats.
Both the Kage's upgrades service different tanks for the purposes of initiating fights - the combined effect of movement speed, long range slows and having a large portion of the item cost negated by how early it fits into your build makes Twin Shadows fairly powerful when used well.


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PvtBlue

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Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
However - why are you paying 1900 for an additional Null-Magic Mantle's worth of MR over Negatron Cloak? This meant that the best MR option was to go double Negatron Cloak.
To be fair, in a late-game situation, saving the item slot is invaluable.

Overall, you're only arguments are against how it was fundamentally a bad set of statistics, but if so many people bought it (Literally every game), and you didn't even add a replacement that you may consider to have a better set of statistics, why remove it in the first place? We are still left with a gap in high-tier MR items, and tanks have almost no options for increasing movespeed unless it's built-in on their character.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-23-2012
2 of 41 Riot Posts

Quote:
To be fair, in a late-game situation, saving the item slot is invaluable.
No doubt - but we chose to favor the path that most tanks would have moderate income streams rather assume they would have high income streams due to the nature of the tank role. We basically optimized their items around flexible mid-tier items rather than assume a high gold baseline and that they would hit 6 items. We figured that, in the vast majority of games, tanks should be building piecemeal to react to their situation - not merely opting for a static build-path that discounts who / what the enemy is. This meant favoring smaller items rather than slot-efficiency for the most part, because you have to factor in what the opponent is rushing.

Watching how the AP mid is doing and deciding what your primary mitigation path is going to be is tantamount. Bulwark, for example, is very effective against high AP characters - but pretty ineffective against mages who rushed penetration


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Zei

Senior Member

12-23-2012

If FoN comes back, AP would probably be way less viable now with all the AD mid champs.


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Teh holiday beef

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Wtf???


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Jensen Acklez

Senior Member

12-23-2012

ionic spark too please ):


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NJ Gamer

Member

12-23-2012

ive never had a problem with magic resist- i dont know why people are complaining