Why we hate Elo-Hell believers

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BigTallUgly

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelohel View Post
If you don't have time to play ranked, I wouldn't stress about ranked.. if you CAN carry yourself out, seasons last for quite a while.. you should have plenty of time to slowly move up.

I'm commenting how a game that could have been fun is no longer fun for me to play because I'm in the bracket of little kids.

Again, to carry yourself out requires that you keep fresh and practice dozens of games everyday to the point where playing LoL is second nature. If you take breaks you naturally get rusty and lose the edge. I dont have time for that.


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Istoleyourtv

Junior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiichi View Post
unfortunately tho, elo hell exists, and if you doubt it, plummit your elo to 700 and tell me if you can make it back up to what you call "average".

Heres how I know elo hell exists:

1)90% of my games have 1 person that dies 10 times or more, even if we win. Thats not a problem.
2) I win 80% of the games where there is only 1 kid going heavy negative, I dont carry every game, but I keep the team together and we push on.
3) I had a 33% win rate in season 2. Vastly different from what I just said, heres the deal:

Most games there are at least 2 people going heavy negative, usually 3. Usually all 4 of my teammates believe they are unjustly in ELO Hell. Not hard to imagine why, probably like me, they see all the feeders, and instead of recignising their negative score, they push the blame on others.

This leads to a simple problem, you find a bunch of feeders, with no concept of the game, running around thinking they are better than everyone else, solo pushing, refusing to work as a team because they know better. If a gold player was placing, and had a bunch of games with these people, they can just as easily lose and end up in the lower elo. In fact, now that we have the borders, I see Gold borders in my 1100 elo games ALL the time, and they tell me the same thing, feeders in placement, feeders most games, now their elo will not rise above the 1200 "average" player mark.

That is elo hell, you need to be able to carry a 1200 elo team of feeders to escape it, which would mean you would need to be better than Gold to get out of it. And if you believe 1200 elo to be average, my friend, you are not competitive enough, I concider being at 1200 to be a failure, and im quite frustraited with my inablility to carry the 1200 elo feeders I deal with daily.

Now dont get me wrong, there are plenty of decent players at 1200 elo, but unfortunately there are alot more feeders that had someone from Gold carry them thru games to get 1200 elo. Big problem, because now elo is not a reprisentation of YOUR skill, but rather your LUCK in getting good teammates. I have a simple solution for this problem that noone seems to like, maybe I just dont explain it properly, but here goes:

Calculate your elo loss/gain based on in game stats. eg: your support, your elo is based on: K/A vs Death ratios. you go 0-5-35, you get loss protection because you were in fights, and didnt feed, congratz. Lets say your an ADC and you go, iuno, 12-10-8. 12 kills, bravo, 10 deaths, tisk tisk. but 8 assists, so your ratio is 2:1, not bad. now lets say you go jungle, and your not that great, and you die in alot of ganks... and go i dunno 1-15-10, now you have contributed to 11 kills but died 15 times, you are NOT helpful. so you take a elo hit. This system accomplishes 2 things:

1) make elo represent how you do in matches
2) discourage dying, while not encouraging KS'ing cuz kills/assists have the same value. Less feeders, better games. Feeders drop elo faster, those who dont feed, hold on to their elo better even if they are in elo hell.

let me know what you think, I hope I showed you why elo hell exists and why it is such a big problem.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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Seiichi

Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
Is it possible that your lack of a fundamental understanding of game theory, unintended consequences and intangible actions that got you to the theory you've developed are also what cause you to be so bad at the game?
I have yet to see you do anything but insult people and break down ideas. Your not in elo hell, congratz, it must be really easy to sit on your high horse and talk down to us but its totally uncalled for. If you have something to say thats fine, back it up, dont just call me stupid and walk away, tell me why you think im wrong.


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Mysoin

Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larrythetapist View Post
Imagine an guy with a Ph.D. in theoretical physics from an Ivy League institution. He comes up and tells you "IM SMARTER THAN YOU AHAHAHAHAHA."

You are a little annoyed, but you understand his claim is justified. You politely request hind-side copulation with his mother, and then still very politely, asks him to leave.



Then there's a second man. He dropped out of high school after attending for five years and failing 9th grade math 5 times. He comes up to you and says "I'm smarter than you, I can not prove it any shape or form and I have no intellectual accomplishments, but I just think I am much much better than you."

This is how I feel when a 700 elo bro comes up to the forum and QQ's about Elo Hell, claims to be gold material, and refers to us average players (~1200 Elo) as "dumb scrubs". Unfortunately this happens every day.
what if that 2nd guy had everything stolen frmo him by the other guy? and that other g uy is actually a troll...oh wait..its real.

don't talk without knowing what elo hell is, you will never get out of 700..unless you duo. its a fact.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiichi View Post
I have yet to see you do anything but insult people and break down ideas. Your not in elo hell, congratz, it must be really easy to sit on your high horse and talk down to us but its totally uncalled for. If you have something to say thats fine, back it up, dont just call me stupid and walk away, tell me why you think im wrong.
Well I was plat last season, right now im 1400 so that's 500 points down, you might call that elo hell, I call that im playing like garbage now(broke computer in august, need to get my skillz with a z back) have my teammates thrown games hard? Sure, but I could win those games if I was playing like I know I can.

I can back up all my statements, I was a little lazy because I've posted on this topic countless times and I haven't actually saved any of my statements, itd be much easier to copy and paste this and tailor it to a single person, regardless I will do what I can to fit all of why you are wrong into 1 post, as it turns out there is a lot of why you are wrong.

For the record last season I played about 40 games between 400 elo and 1300 last season(this was after I had reached 1900) I lost 2? maybe 3, and I specifically remember all of them I screwed up and could of won, this isn't to say that every game you should win, but the point is even if I lost say 10 games of the 40, then i'm still +20 wins(12.5 elo x 20 = 250 elo gain) even if you lost 15 games you are going up.

So alright.
Quote:
1)90% of my games have 1 person that dies 10 times or more, even if we win. Thats not a problem.
No, this is not a problem, this happens, lower elo people don't have a good grasp of their limits, they get caught, and the opposing team isn't good enough to secure a win with only a 1-3k lead. At higher elos players rarely die 10+ times because a game where a player has the potential to die that much simply wont last long enough for that to happen.
Quote:
2) I win 80% of the games where there is only 1 kid going heavy negative, I dont carry every game, but I keep the team together and we push on.
You don't, I cant do that either, you should read my post as more of an opportunity to learn, I cant carry a player that goes heavy negative 80% of the time, RARELY am I able to do that, I couldn't give you a percentage, but its not near 80%. Yet why am I so much better than you? Instead what I do is I prevent a player from falling that far behind, im taking global objectives to give him gold, im pressuring other areas to force his opponent to roam elsewhere, allowing him time to build up levels and gold. I'm ganking his lane, i'm doing everything I can to keep him strong in the game, neutralizing his opponents snowball as much as possible. That is the difference between me and you, you're only solution is to try to 'arms race' with the opponent getting fed, there are so many other options, sometimes snowball racing is good, but its not the only solution.

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3) I had a 33% win rate in season 2. Vastly different from what I just said, heres the deal:
Out of how many games? This right here tells me you didn't play very many games, no matter how bad you are or good you are. The system will attempt to get you as close to 50% as possible, last season I think I ended up around +50 wins, I played roughly 1700 ranked games. I was pretty happy with my +50, but that comes out very close to 50%. I'd be surprised if you played over 200 games. This is another part of why your understanding of elo hell is flawed, you simply do not have the proper game sample size to deserve an opinion

Quote:
That is elo hell, you need to be able to carry a 1200 elo team of feeders to escape it, which would mean you would need to be better than Gold to get out of it. And if you believe 1200 elo to be average, my friend, you are not competitive enough, I concider being at 1200 to be a failure, and im quite frustraited with my inablility to carry the 1200 elo feeders I deal with daily.
Playing 1700 games last season gives me some ups and downs, ive lost 10 in a row, ive won 10 in a row, ive been trolled by the same player 8 games in a row(mind you this was before you could dodge for free, still am against the free dodges). Its safe to say that I have lost damn near every possible way.

Here's the thing, I noticed that anytime I would get about 200 elo down from where I had been hovering for a bit. I would have such an edge that I would win about 75%-80% of my games, does that mean I'd win every game? No, sometimes i'd still lose even after dropping that far, but i'd win most of my games, it didn't matter what role I played, I was giving my team and edge every single game that the other team didn't have, this includes support, sometimes i'd lose games as support, but id still give my team an edge, so when my teammates got a little advantage, I made it bigger, when both teams were neutral, I gave us an advantage, eventually that edge will work itself out into tangible elo.

This idea that a gold player, and I mean a real gold player, im not talking about someone who touches 1500 with his dick and then drops back down. I'm mean a guy that has played 100 games at least in the 1500 bracket. To suggest he would struggle to get out of 1300, or 1200, is just ignorant.
The system works so well that it causes you to believe in elo hell. You can actually test this yourself, simply drop 500 elo from wherever you are, what you'll notice is you really wont care what your team does, you will just go around and dunk on whoever you want, you might lose a game or 2, but you'll be giving your team such a huge edge every single game that you simply will win tons of games.

Quote:
Now dont get me wrong, there are plenty of decent players at 1200 elo, but unfortunately there are alot more feeders that had someone from Gold carry them thru games to get 1200 elo. Big problem, because now elo is not a reprisentation of YOUR skill, but rather your LUCK in getting good teammates.
Here is a perfect example of you having a fundamental flaw in your game theory thought process. You don't understand what skill is, i'll elaborate for you.

at 1200, and I can safely say all the way until 1600 at least, there are just massive gaps in players skills, they might be good at doing a couple things, csing, general mechanics, awareness, counter picking, roaming, team fighting, I could go on. So when they get into a situation where they are experienced, they will look good, an example would be someone who is great at csing and sits back and farms while his opponent fails at trying to kill him, he's gonna get an edge from out farming, get stronger, and ultimately be a better champion during a fight, they look like they're a great player, they do well and win the game.

But then there are tons of situations where that same player isn't good, perhaps a lane has fallen behind and needs a boost, this great farming guy might not be a great roamer, games where he has to do something other than that 1 or 2 things he's good at, he's not going to win, likewise his opponent that was trying to kill him and failing before, might look really good in a game where his teammates could use a gank.

There are literally hundreds of situations that you have to be prepared for, falling behind, staying ahead, catching up, assisting other lanes, stealing objectives. Handling a counter pick, Abusing a counter pick edge, and if you aren't well versed in one of these and you end up in that situation, your team will be at a serious disadvantage, and everytime you get put in that situation, you have a higher chance of losing until you learn to handle it.

Once you get around 1600, people have started getting more balanced overall for these types of situations, they may only play 1 or 2 lanes, but they can handle those scenarios pretty well. This isn't a magic number or anything, people at 1500 are still balancing, just that 1600's have just a bit more scenarios covered, the same applies to 1700, and onwards, the higher you go, the more scenarios players are able to respond to, as well as the fact that the edges those things can obtain you become smaller and smaller. The highest elos are primarily coming up with strategies to obtain themselves some of the smallest edges you'd ever seen, that's because everyone is prepared for everything else.

Quote:
Calculate your elo loss/gain based on in game stats. eg: your support, your elo is based on: K/A vs Death ratios. you go 0-5-35, you get loss protection because you were in fights, and didnt feed, congratz. Lets say your an ADC and you go, iuno, 12-10-8. 12 kills, bravo, 10 deaths, tisk tisk. but 8 assists, so your ratio is 2:1, not bad
This is where you don't understand intangible actions, intangible actions are things that are vital and necessary to win a game, but they don't actually register on a scoreboard. Simple positioning, adjusting your style to best help your team, warding or not warding, there are tons of things that are really important to winning a game that you should be doing a lot, but they don't contribute to gold gain or anything. Something as simple as pushing a lane quickly, even if you lose 50 gold doing it. But its to deny your opponent 250 gold as well as reset the lane where you need it.

Ultimately what happens is you force sub optimal play, players will hedge their bets of winning the game by doing the actions which award elo, whether its getting good KDA, warding right, whatever you are doing. They wont sacrifice their personal elo because they aren't guaranteed to win if they do these 'worthless' intangible actions, but they will lose their personal elo boost.

Any action that awards elo that is NOT a win or a loss will create sub optimal play, this is simple a game theory fact, you can throw any example, any system, of any game, Chess doesn't award ELO based on how many pieces you take or how fast you win, these things are dependent on individual playstyles, "Performance can't be measured absolutely; it can only be inferred from wins, losses, and draws against other players"(LoL doesn't have draws)

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now lets say you go jungle, and your not that great, and you die in alot of ganks... and go i dunno 1-15-10, now you have contributed to 11 kills but died 15 times, you are NOT helpful. so you take a elo hit.
I wanted to specifically isolate this part because I had a perfect examplee a day or 2 ago to explain why this is terribly flawed, I was playing Jarvan top, I actually started out real well, going 2-0 in lane. I believe our bot lane was losing a bit. Teamfights began and what I ended up doing every team fight was diving into their team to hit their AP and AD carry(and sometimes support), getting both of them as low as possible, usually around 30% and then I would get killed, I did this because we had an AP Master Yi, he got big enough early, so after they would use everything to kill me, he would pick up a quadra kill at least, I was lucky to pick up 2-3 assists if even that, and he would end up finishing the game around 17-2 compared to my 2-8-7.

Even if you say "well you contributed to more kills than you died so you would still go up" the problem is that neither more or Yi in this situation deserve more elo than the other. He may have got those kills, but if I don't start the fight and get them low, he picks up 0 kills instead of 4, your system actually encourages me to wait for Yi to blow everything to get a couple people low, and then for me to try to clean them up, however I recognize that Yi has a much better skill set to accomplish this, which is why I played the way I did, to win the game. Not to abuse some flawed system, study game theory, you will accept that you can ONLY award elo for wins and losses.

We can sit here all day and you come up with little tweaks to the system, and I poke holes in it, maybe it takes me a little bit to figure out how you could abuse a particular idea of yours, but that's not really the point, you need to understand the theory behind the system, learn to win games more than just trying to get big and killing everyone, this game is all about RELATIVE POWER, to eachother, not every game has to have 200 cs at 20 minutes, sometimes its okay to have lower cs if it comes with the value of your opponent having even lower cs. As you expand your tools to win, you will see your elo go up.

Or you can complain about the fact that you are so good, post some replays and i'll show you what edges you missed out on, and how you could have contributed more and possibly won.


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Larrythetapist

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbiiee View Post
That's not how it would work. Giving rewards for warding a bush can be manipulated, however, going 10/4/5 on a team with 3 feeders can't. It should be more about the stat line. Not the Win-loss column.
The idea still holds.

lets say having a better kda than your team average is currently a good predictor of your true Elo.

But if Riot actually implements a system that rewards Elo for this, then the following will happen
1. Enormous increase of Darius, LeBlanc players who wins their lane easily, then go around KSing their carries all day err' day then sits on their amazing KDA in the fountain when they start losing (inevitable since their carries are starved) to secure their Elo gain.

2. Increase in plays Assassin heroes like Eve who roams and gank all game, ignores their lane.

3. High damage ults are now always being saved for landing kill blows instead of initiation.
Team fights is now like this: everyone pokes and ***** foots around for 15 minutes, then BAM! 10 Ults all at once.

The Conclusion: KDA becomes a much less effective indicator of your skill with champions or ability of win.


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Seiichi

Member

12-23-2012

For starters your entire post is misguided based on an assumption that you have more games played, or more experience than I do, let me say this first, I played closed beta, before season 1 even started I was sitting at about 70% win rate with my main, fiddlesticks, who I had about 800 wins with alone. I've seen alot, I've played with people like phreak, in fact before I knew who he was I raged on him in a game cuz I didnt like the way he played teemo, thats about all I remember about that but point is my pre seasion 1 normal elo was in that range, I saw him and other now noteworthy players many times. I quit for over a year somewhere between season1 and 2 and now im back. I think I had close to 150 games played in season 2, which was a disaster. Your condescending and assumptious. I also never said I wanted to AWARD elo for high ratio players, I just intend on buffering them from a loss due to events like feeders and afkers. I dont mean a total save, I mean a reduction in elo lost, so you dont plummit 200 elo. I hope thats clear now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
Well I was plat last season, right now im 1400 so that's 500 points down, you might call that elo hell
that is far from elo hell, drop another 400 elo and it starts, drop down to 700-800 elo, dont tell anyone your platinum, and let me know what your win rate is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
For the record last season I played about 40 games between 400 elo and 1300 last season(this was after I had reached 1900) I lost 2? maybe 3, and I specifically remember all of them I screwed up and could of won, this isn't to say that every game you should win, but the point is even if I lost say 10 games of the 40, then i'm still +20 wins(12.5 elo x 20 = 250 elo gain) even if you lost 15 games you are going up.

As I said, you would need to be gold or better to get out of elo hell. So what do the barely gold material players who should be learning gold mechanics but are in the 700 elo range to do? we do our best, and yah, at about 700 elo I win most games, at 1200 elo, its mostly luck, are my feeders feeding harder than theirs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
You don't, I cant do that either, you should read my post as more of an opportunity to learn, I cant carry a player that goes heavy negative 80% of the time, RARELY am I able to do that, I couldn't give you a percentage, but its not near 80%. Yet why am I so much better than you? Instead what I do is I prevent a player from falling that far behind, im taking global objectives to give him gold, im pressuring other areas to force his opponent to roam elsewhere, allowing him time to build up levels and gold. I'm ganking his lane, i'm doing everything I can to keep him strong in the game, neutralizing his opponents snowball as much as possible. That is the difference between me and you, you're only solution is to try to 'arms race' with the opponent getting fed, there are so many other options, sometimes snowball racing is good, but its not the only solution.

Again, you are making assumptions about how I play. I had a 70% win rate as jungle, because I do exactly what you describe here. I go where I am needed, and I keep everyone up, but when Im top and the enemy jungle is babysitting cuz im 5-0 in 15 min, should I let my tower go to help the 0-5 mid while i stop the 0-3 and 0-6 bottom from dying to another gank from mid? there is only so much you can do when every lane except for yours is losing. I do everything in my power, and regardless of how little you assume I know about the game, I do play at a high level, and I am no stranger to competitive team play nor was LoL my first MOBA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
Out of how many games? This right here tells me you didn't play very many games, no matter how bad you are or good you are. The system will attempt to get you as close to 50% as possible, last season I think I ended up around +50 wins, I played roughly 1700 ranked games. I was pretty happy with my +50, but that comes out very close to 50%. I'd be surprised if you played over 200 games. This is another part of why your understanding of elo hell is flawed, you simply do not have the proper game sample size to deserve an opinion
over 1k wins before season 1. Closed Beta tester. Over 100 games season 2 ranked tail end. The system assumes the kids I am playing with are all on the same level, not true, I stomp 700 elo with any role, I'll go legendary support, altho I try not to. In a high elo the system is PERFECT, in low elo, it is based on luck. My season 3 prelims went somethin like this, dont remember exactly but roughly:

1) 3 feeders, me mid, 5-0 end of laning 6-6-10 end of game, loss
2) 1 afk, my jungle is now top, so is their jungle, 2 feeders, nuff said
3) 1 feeder, me adc, win
4) 4 people feeding my 3 kills made up the team score, end game in 20 min at 3-40
5) 1 feeder, me jungle, win.

thats what the "50% win" system did for me, at that point I almost quit. I dont know about platinum players but I cant carry that, but starting with a 1k elo rating just doesnt feel like its what I deserve


Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
This idea that a gold player, and I mean a real gold player, im not talking about someone who touches 1500 with his dick and then drops back down. I'm mean a guy that has played 100 games at least in the 1500 bracket. To suggest he would struggle to get out of 1300, or 1200, is just ignorant.
The system works so well that it causes you to believe in elo hell. You can actually test this yourself, simply drop 500 elo from wherever you are, what you'll notice is you really wont care what your team does, you will just go around and dunk on whoever you want, you might lose a game or 2, but you'll be giving your team such a huge edge every single game that you simply will win tons of games.
gold is what 1400-1600? so 1500 is better than gold start point to me, I simply meant u would hafta be up there, not barely gold, to be able to carry yourself out of elo hell in a short time. I will get out, mark my words, you will see me gold at the end of season 3, its just a **** ton of frustration and work just so I can get to a level of play where I can continue to develop my skill. And at 1200 elo, I basically walk around dunkin whoever I want, if I go negative its usually cuz im support or tank, or, the more likely situation, the other team is so fed towers mean **** so they ace my team and chase me to fountain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
at 1200, and I can safely say all the way until 1600 at least, there are just massive gaps in players skills, they might be good at doing a couple things, csing, general mechanics, awareness, counter picking, roaming, team fighting, I could go on. So when they get into a situation where they are experienced, they will look good, an example would be someone who is great at csing and sits back and farms while his opponent fails at trying to kill him, he's gonna get an edge from out farming, get stronger, and ultimately be a better champion during a fight, they look like they're a great player, they do well and win the game.
A little note about my LoL career up till now, I was the second person from my old CS 1.6 team to get into this game, now I use to have a CS clan of over 100 people and ran 3 CAL teams, so I had alot of friends that never played DOTA or RTS for that matter, and alot of them said "hey, I want to come play this new game with you" so I've spent ALOT of time analzing how people play, figuring out for them what their best roles are, with good accuracy, and telling them how to improve at what they are not so good at. I did it in CS, I did it in LoL, I was the instructor for many many friends who then went on to gold+ season 1 and in that I learned how to play every role well. I also spent alot of time decoding the game and comming up with how to win in different situations. Things like is it more important to push 1 tower, or get dragon fast, when should top give up and start roaming if they are being outplayed, how and when should jungles be ganking, etc etc etc. I am a long time competitive gamer, when I get serious about a game I dream about difficult situations, I watch replays of myself before going to bed at night, etc etc. I know that games are won in your head first, and your fingers second, and I can boast about some ideas I had that were shunned first but are "obvious" now. I'll only brag about one tho, ez, when he was released everyone and their mom was building AP or Hybrid. I use to go flat AD and sheen, and every single game took flack for it. "duur why u ad ez? noob" and I said it was obvious, Q does work, all spells give attack speed, why would u do anything else? now its mainstream, and I pull an AP ez for ****s and giggles now, which most pple see and go "what kinda idiot would ever build AP ez?" and I laugh. Believe me, deny me, I dont care, its true and its not the only time I was ahead of my time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
This is where you don't understand intangible actions, intangible actions are things that are vital and necessary to win a game, but they don't actually register on a scoreboard. Simple positioning, adjusting your style to best help your team, warding or not warding, there are tons of things that are really important to winning a game that you should be doing a lot, but they don't contribute to gold gain or anything. Something as simple as pushing a lane quickly, even if you lose 50 gold doing it. But its to deny your opponent 250 gold as well as reset the lane where you need it.
And this is where you dont understand my intentions. I do not care to award the legendary AP yi who won kills off of the sacrifices of his teams. I want to cushon the fall of the legendary sivir who got 10 kills in 9 minutes and lost the game cuz her team refused to engage, ever. Even under tower. True story, I was pissed. I am not down for bonus elo, I am only interested in discouraging feeding, meaning if ur the tank, and u know "ok, if I go in, and I die, but my team picks up 2-3 kills, my ratio will be ok still and even if we lose, my elo wont be that bad" your in a good place. If your the tank and you think "ok well I dont want my ratio to suck so im going to sit here and wait, doing nothing, not dying" your gunna go 0-3-3 and your ratio WILL suck. If you play pantheon like my buddy does and go 15-13-0 every game, your ratio will suck. If you want to improve your elo you might think "gee, I need to get these kills without dying so if we lose, my elo is safe" and again, we are creating a better enviroment. Like I said, at high elo, the system works, the problem is for the struggling upstart in my bracket that does their best, but drops 100 elo a day until they hit 700. They may do what they are capable of, and not feed, but its a team game, so your team can drag you down. I'd simply like to soften that so the struggling lowbie can feel at ease knowing that doing their best to stay alive and still score assists and kill will be rewarded. Otherwise you come to the same point I did multiple times where you just go "whats the point of trying even when I do amazing someone is on the other side of the map is dying alone under 100 caution pings". Last time, I dont want to encourage selfish play, or ks'ing, I want a system that discourages dying. In DotA the system is fundamental, you die, you lose gold. Alot of gold. Noone wants to die, problem solved. We dont have that, so we need something else to discourage dying, simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
Even if you say "well you contributed to more kills than you died so you would still go up" the problem is that neither more or Yi in this situation deserve more elo than the other. He may have got those kills, but if I don't start the fight and get them low, he picks up 0 kills instead of 4, your system actually encourages me to wait for Yi to blow everything to get a couple people low, and then for me to try to clean them up, however I recognize that Yi has a much better skill set to accomplish this, which is why I played the way I did, to win the game. Not to abuse some flawed system, study game theory, you will accept that you can ONLY award elo for wins and losses.
If you did this and went slightly positive, and your yi won the game, that is your reward, wins are wins, everyone should get the same elo, but if your on a team and lets say your ap yi is 1-6-0 and your adc is 2-8-2 and your support is 0-10-3 I dont think you would be diving into their team ever, if you did, your inexperienced team would probably run for the hills. Again, again, again, this change should have little to no effect to gold + but alot of effect to the lower brackets. I dont want to award extra elo, and cheap out supports, I just want supports to stop warding alone and dying 20 times per game. If you ward properly, position yourself properly, and do all those lovely little things that the scoreboard doesnt reward you for, you will die less, and have a better ratio. Meaning... warding for your team kinda will be reflected in your score, wont it?

I will be posting replays on LoLReplay, your welcome to look at them if you want, but dont expect many till after christmas. I dont post just good games, I'll be posting ALL my games in hopes that I can get advice, but Im sure you will see there are alot of stupid, stupid people in the lower elo that an average player just cant carry. And you cnat expect an average player to develope to platinum in the 1000 elo range, its just not tangible. You dont become a bodybuilder by repeating the same weight, you must find new challenges to grow, and I dont think carrying 3-4 feeders at 1200 elo with a 1300 elo skill level is in the game mechanics.


In short: You misunderstood my idea completely, I dont care to + elo for winners just - elo loss for losers who happen to be on a team of feeders. Please dont assume I have no experience and shut me down based on that when you know nothing about me. Understand we are not talking about 1900 elo games, we are talking about 700 elo LOSSES, not even wins, just LOSSES.


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Kirielis

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Senior Member

12-23-2012

You probably missed the part where Selcopa said he had played some in that range himself. Heck, I've been the 1200 elo player running around 700 elo games. Those were the games I insta locked Janna, called mid, and built for ADC, and I made something like 10 straight wins doing that every game regardless of who else wanted mid - if they went mid anyway I went to either sidelane and did the same thing and won. Teamwork? Who needs teamwork? I'm just going to crush them even though I don't play Janna in any role and my ADCing is rather subpar. (Then again, I know a little something about map control and roaming mids.)

I looked up your in game profile, standard practice. Even discounting the obvious troll rune pages, you're missing a support page...okay, I don't support in low elo anyway, whatever. I don't want to think about S3 masteries, so you get off free on that one. But lol that match history - do you even know what cs is, what on earth do you think you're building, and why do you persist in thinking you can win a duel when you're 0-2 to him when you couldn't do it 0-0 to him. Among other things.


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Larrythetapist

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirielis View Post
I looked up your in game profile, standard practice. Even discounting the obvious troll rune pages, you're missing a support page...okay, I don't support in low elo anyway, whatever. I don't want to think about S3 masteries, so you get off free on that one. But lol that match history - do you even know what cs is, what on earth do you think you're building, and why do you persist in thinking you can win a duel when you're 0-2 to him when you couldn't do it 0-0 to him. Among other things.
He's a gold player dude, didn't you read his post?
Stop judging him using your 1200-elo scrubby standards.

when you get to gold you dont need cs or the right build to win games.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiichi View Post
For starters your entire post is misguided based on an assumption that you have more games played, or more experience than I do, let me say this first, I played closed beta, before season 1 even started I was sitting at about 70% win rate with my main, fiddlesticks, who I had about 800 wins with alone. I've seen alot, I've played with people like phreak, in fact before I knew who he was I raged on him in a game cuz I didnt like the way he played teemo, thats about all I remember about that but point is my pre seasion 1 normal elo was in that range, I saw him and other now noteworthy players many times. I quit for over a year somewhere between season1 and 2 and now im back. I think I had close to 150 games played in season 2, which was a disaster. Your condescending and assumptious. I also never said I wanted to AWARD elo for high ratio players, I just intend on buffering them from a loss due to events like feeders and afkers. I dont mean a total save, I mean a reduction in elo lost, so you dont plummit 200 elo. I hope thats clear now.
I bolded yet another lack of fundamental game theory concept.

Any action that mitigates, awards, or otherwise reduces the 12.5 elo lost from losing a game, or boosting the 12.5 elo from a win is AWARDING ELO, even moving from -12.5 to -11, is still AWARDING elo for not winning a game, as such, whatever action that is, you are promoting it at the expense of discouraging intangible actions.

This isnt a "I played more games than you whip it out and see whose is bigger" contest, this is a discussion of game theory, you have yet to show me, that you have any understanding of the topic.

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that is far from elo hell, drop another 400 elo and it starts, drop down to 700-800 elo, dont tell anyone your platinum, and let me know what your win rate is.
I have, i've played plenty of games 700 elo below where i belong, as well as played plenty of games at 700 elo. Not only do I not tell anyone that i'm platinum(I did this before the badges came out) I actually would simply /ignore all my team every single game.



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As I said, you would need to be gold or better to get out of elo hell. So what do the barely gold material players who should be learning gold mechanics but are in the 700 elo range to do? we do our best, and yah, at about 700 elo I win most games, at 1200 elo, its mostly luck, are my feeders feeding harder than theirs.
Alright so you subscribe to the concept of the hard barrier at 1200ish elo, thats your theory of elo hell, so what you are telling me, is that a player who cant break 1200, could sustain a 1500 rating? I simply havent seen it, ive reviewed well over 150 replays from players who believe this, I just havent seen a player who belongs at 1500 get 'stuck' in 1200 for an extended period of time
EDIT:My definition of an extended period of time is more than 50 games, it simply does not happen, its not even happening to me right now, as im struggling in lower elos(i keep missing orianna ultis)

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Again, you are making assumptions about how I play. I had a 70% win rate as jungle, because I do exactly what you describe here. I go where I am needed, and I keep everyone up, but when Im top and the enemy jungle is babysitting cuz im 5-0 in 15 min, should I let my tower go to help the 0-5 mid while i stop the 0-3 and 0-6 bottom from dying to another gank from mid? there is only so much you can do when every lane except for yours is losing. I do everything in my power, and regardless of how little you assume I know about the game, I do play at a high level, and I am no stranger to competitive team play nor was LoL my first MOBA.
Well LoL was my first moba, so I must just be real lucky right?
70% winrate, why dont you call jungle every game, it sounds to me like you just suck at top lane, and are better at jungle, btw you know you can roam as top lane right? Get Tele and dunk on everything!

As ive said before, you are more than welcome to upload some replays of you playing fantastic and your teammates keeping you down. I've seen alot of replays, id like to see a couple that actually suggested you couldnt win.



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over 1k wins before season 1. Closed Beta tester. Over 100 games season 2 ranked tail end. The system assumes the kids I am playing with are all on the same level, not true, I stomp 700 elo with any role, I'll go legendary support, altho I try not to. In a high elo the system is PERFECT, in low elo, it is based on luck. My season 3 prelims went somethin like this, dont remember exactly but roughly:

1) 3 feeders, me mid, 5-0 end of laning 6-6-10 end of game, loss
2) 1 afk, my jungle is now top, so is their jungle, 2 feeders, nuff said
3) 1 feeder, me adc, win
4) 4 people feeding my 3 kills made up the team score, end game in 20 min at 3-40
5) 1 feeder, me jungle, win.

thats what the "50% win" system did for me, at that point I almost quit. I dont know about platinum players but I cant carry that, but starting with a 1k elo rating just doesnt feel like its what I deserve
Im sorry you misunderstood me, 33% winrate in season 2, i dont care about the rest of your history, unless you are trying to suggest to me that you've played since closed beta and have only been able to win 1/3rd of your games, man you really need to practice more.

100 games season 2 tail end, so yeah, under 200 games, that makes sense why you would have a 33% winrate, you just proved my point.




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gold is what 1400-1600? so 1500 is better than gold start point to me, I simply meant u would hafta be up there, not barely gold, to be able to carry yourself out of elo hell in a short time. I will get out, mark my words, you will see me gold at the end of season 3, its just a **** ton of frustration and work just so I can get to a level of play where I can continue to develop my skill. And at 1200 elo, I basically walk around dunkin whoever I want, if I go negative its usually cuz im support or tank, or, the more likely situation, the other team is so fed towers mean **** so they ace my team and chase me to fountain.
Gold is 1500, and im talkin a player who has played at least 100 games above the 1500 mark, not "better than gold" a simple gold player will be able to crush games at 1200, or 1300, even 1400 they're gonna win a high percentage

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A little note about my LoL career up till now, I was the second person from my old CS 1.6 team to get into this game, now I use to have a CS clan of over 100 people and ran 3 CAL teams, so I had alot of friends that never played DOTA or RTS for that matter, and alot of them said "hey, I want to come play this new game with you" so I've spent ALOT of time analzing how people play, figuring out for them what their best roles are, with good accuracy, and telling them how to improve at what they are not so good at. I did it in CS, I did it in LoL, I was the instructor for many many friends who then went on to gold+ season 1 and in that I learned how to play every role well. I also spent alot of time decoding the game and comming up with how to win in different situations. Things like is it more important to push 1 tower, or get dragon fast, when should top give up and start roaming if they are being outplayed, how and when should jungles be ganking, etc etc etc. I am a long time competitive gamer, when I get serious about a game I dream about difficult situations, I watch replays of myself before going to bed at night, etc etc. I know that games are won in your head first, and your fingers second, and I can boast about some ideas I had that were shunned first but are "obvious" now. I'll only brag about one tho, ez, when he was released everyone and their mom was building AP or Hybrid. I use to go flat AD and sheen, and every single game took flack for it. "duur why u ad ez? noob" and I said it was obvious, Q does work, all spells give attack speed, why would u do anything else? now its mainstream, and I pull an AP ez for ****s and giggles now, which most pple see and go "what kinda idiot would ever build AP ez?" and I laugh. Believe me, deny me, I dont care, its true and its not the only time I was ahead of my time.
I dont care, now you are behind the times, show some replays of your amazing strategies that give you huge edges that your teammates just cant do anything with. This isnt about how many games you've played, or whatever level of game theory you think you have, i only brought up games because you clamed to have 33% winrate, meaning you have a low game count



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And this is where you dont understand my intentions. I do not care to award the legendary AP yi who won kills off of the sacrifices of his teams. I want to cushon the fall of the legendary sivir who got 10 kills in 9 minutes and lost the game cuz her team refused to engage, ever. Even under tower. True story, I was pissed. I am not down for bonus elo, I am only interested in discouraging feeding, meaning if ur the tank, and u know "ok, if I go in, and I die, but my team picks up 2-3 kills, my ratio will be ok still and even if we lose, my elo wont be that bad" your in a good place. If your the tank and you think "ok well I dont want my ratio to suck so im going to sit here and wait, doing nothing, not dying" your gunna go 0-3-3 and your ratio WILL suck. If you play pantheon like my buddy does and go 15-13-0 every game, your ratio will suck. If you want to improve your elo you might think "gee, I need to get these kills without dying so if we lose, my elo is safe" and again, we are creating a better enviroment. Like I said, at high elo, the system works, the problem is for the struggling upstart in my bracket that does their best, but drops 100 elo a day until they hit 700. They may do what they are capable of, and not feed, but its a team game, so your team can drag you down. I'd simply like to soften that so the struggling lowbie can feel at ease knowing that doing their best to stay alive and still score assists and kill will be rewarded. Otherwise you come to the same point I did multiple times where you just go "whats the point of trying even when I do amazing someone is on the other side of the map is dying alone under 100 caution pings". Last time, I dont want to encourage selfish play, or ks'ing, I want a system that discourages dying. In DotA the system is fundamental, you die, you lose gold. Alot of gold. Noone wants to die, problem solved. We dont have that, so we need something else to discourage dying, simple.
A couple things.

1:Your system would also cushion the fall of the 'legendary yi' who gets all their kills because of me, the jarvan who gets all the champions low and then Yi cleans up, suppose after doing that some, Yi makes a huge mistake and we end up losing the game, under your system, Yi still gets less of an elo loss than me, even though I did all the right things, Yi screws up, and makes us lose, he would actually lose less elo than me, someone who made less mistakes than him, this is MUCH WORSE than the current system(which works excellent) you simply cant avoid this. you cant award elo for getting kills in losses because the same concept of my jarvan applies, how you dont see this is beyond me.

2: If you are a sivir and you get 10 kills in 9 minutes and you lose, you screwed up, period, there is no question, this isnt "oh my team didnt engage" screw that, you can make things happen when you get that far ahead, i'd love to see a replay of you getting 10 kills in 9 minutes and your 'team' failing you and you not having anything to do with it, because im 100% confident that you screwed up if you get 10 kills at the start and still lose, im not losing in that situation, no mediocre player is losing there.



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If you did this and went slightly positive, and your yi won the game, that is your reward, wins are wins, everyone should get the same elo, but if your on a team and lets say your ap yi is 1-6-0 and your adc is 2-8-2 and your support is 0-10-3 I dont think you would be diving into their team ever, if you did, your inexperienced team would probably run for the hills. Again, again, again, this change should have little to no effect to gold + but alot of effect to the lower brackets. I dont want to award extra elo, and cheap out supports, I just want supports to stop warding alone and dying 20 times per game. If you ward properly, position yourself properly, and do all those lovely little things that the scoreboard doesnt reward you for, you will die less, and have a better ratio. Meaning... warding for your team kinda will be reflected in your score, wont it?
Again, you simply dont understand the concept of the Prisoners dilemma, let me show you.

Suppose you have your system, there are 4 outcomes, high KDA win bonus elo, regular kda win, elo, high kda loss mitigated elo loss, low kda loss, bonus elo loss.

In this scenario, it is ALWAYS best to screw over your team to get a higher KDA, it is never optimal strategy for you to sacrifice your KDA or any metric, in order to secure the win, because the optimal strategy will always be to maintain your higher KDA and have someone else sacrifice their KDA to assure the victory. Even if you remove the bonus elo on wins for high KDA it doesnt change the core problem.(and it creates room for the exact thing you are complaining about, players unjustly having their elo move because of their teammates) You simply cannot create a system that awards elo for non victories/losses, without it being susceptible to Prisoner Dilemma situations. Its simply impossible.

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I will be posting replays on LoLReplay, your welcome to look at them if you want, but dont expect many till after christmas. I dont post just good games, I'll be posting ALL my games in hopes that I can get advice, but Im sure you will see there are alot of stupid, stupid people in the lower elo that an average player just cant carry. And you cnat expect an average player to develope to platinum in the 1000 elo range, its just not tangible. You dont become a bodybuilder by repeating the same weight, you must find new challenges to grow, and I dont think carrying 3-4 feeders at 1200 elo with a 1300 elo skill level is in the game mechanics.
Again, more and more evidence that you simply have zero understanding of game theory.

You have to accept, that you will receive <= the amount of feeders on your team as you will the opponents team, its a simple statistical fact comnig from the fact that you personally can influence whether or not a player feeds(you).

From this knowledge there are certain things that simply HAVE to occur, you must accept that over any respectable sample size, that with all things held equal, you will get the same number of feeders,bad players ect, on your team, than you will on the opposing team(in fact statistically you are guaranteed to have more on the opponents team, but since that would mind**** you lets stick to equal).

Because feeders on your team and the opponents team cancel out, if you are greater skilled than the rest of the players in your field, you will win more than 50% of your games, this is simply math, you cannot conceive of a theory that denies this other than stupid anecdotal evidence that is useless. There is no denying these 3 facts, they occur, they must occur and nothing else can occur other than this.


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In short: You misunderstood my idea completely, I dont care to + elo for winners just - elo loss for losers who happen to be on a team of feeders. Please dont assume I have no experience and shut me down based on that when you know nothing about me. Understand we are not talking about 1900 elo games, we are talking about 700 elo LOSSES, not even wins, just LOSSES.
I dont misunderstand, you are simply using a slightly modify'd verison of systems that have been introduced for years, obviously mitigating only losses would inflate the ladder, as well as create a situation where a player actually could sustain a certain elo, and have a winrate below 50%.

Again its not that you dont have experience, its that you lack game theory, i mean the simple fact that you believe that 1900 elo games are different than 700 elo games is an obvious indicator(among several things ive already pointed out) they're not, they snowball worse, are harder to come back from, and the slightest mistakes costs you the game.

You are right about one thing, you cant learn to play 1900 level games at the 1000 level, thats because you simply arent ready for it, i mean, you are wrong in the fact that you cant learn how to fix the smallest of problems that are detrimental to a 1900 games, you just wont be able to appreciate the severity of such a minute mistake, because theyre are literally hundreds of mistakes being made at 1000, and of all those, the mistakes that are game changing at 1900, are the least of your problems at 1000.

As ive said before, you are welcome to post replays of you playing amazing but your team holding you down, I honestly find it hilarious that a player legitimately believes that there are players 'trapped' in 1200, who are actually more skilled than 1400 players(you said it requires greater than gold status to carry yourself), as a player who spent hundreds of games in the 1100s, 1200s, 1300s 1400s and every 100 bracket to 1900, i can assure you, there are no players 'stuck' in 1200 who can consistently play like a 1500, 1400, or even 1300, and if you cant consistently play like one, than you certainly arent one.