LoL is going to need to step up there game soon.

First Riot Post
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Crownface

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flourescence View Post
just how many champion concepts Rioters have come up with, only to be shot down when their team didn't like it as much.
Hundreds, actually.

They're all black champions.


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Elsea

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crownface View Post
Hundreds, actually.

They're all black champions.

So then, out of let's say, 500 champion concepts, 100 aren't black, and the 400 cancelled ones are black? Then Riot must really love black champions, since that means all that they can think about are them.


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sultryvoltron

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Dota 2 will never overtake LoL for one simple reason.

LoL is enjoyable to watch. The S2 Finals were broadcast on public television in Korea, and the entire tournament was watched by TONS of people around the world. It is easy to watch because the art style and information telegraphing is very good and is simple and clear enough for spectators to enjoy.

Watching someone play Dota 2 is awful if you don't already have a complete knowledge of the game. For inexperienced players, half the time you can't even tell the heroes from the minions, and people just randomly die from skills that you didn't even see happen because the health bars and move animations are very hard to follow from a spectator's viewpoint.


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Kmiavdaen

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

It would force Riot to completely remade client to implement many of those additions, imagine imminent chaos outbreak caused by all that downtime, bugs and glitches that would follow. They must do it someday, but their approach works so far. While having such a glaring issues (lack of features) lol is doing surprasingly well at what is important - gameplay and support


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BlueWallpaper

Senior Member

12-20-2012

riotnom... new favorite rioter!


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Nome or Die

Game Designer

12-20-2012
3 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainAMorgan View Post
Dota 2 comes out of the box with access to the entire hero stable. You have access to any and all replays of games you played. You have access to a feature that allows you to create your own custom armor (and even make money off of it if you're lucky). When it comes to accessibility, Dota2 trumps LoL massively in the general regard, as there is no grind involved. You can spend the time you would spend grinding making your own armor! (I do want to state that they have larger financial backing, so they may be able to afford this model, and I am understanding of that)

LoL comes out of the box with access to a free rotation of champs and a few unlocked. You have to download a 3rd party developer's software to have access to a bad replay feature. If you want any aesthetic change then you have to pay money for it.

Noting these things it's quite obvious that I pay for this game with my time played. You can argue "time played" =/= "work" but it does. Time = Money, and as my time becomes more valuable, so do the things I choose to do. I will say that I have thoroughly enjoyed my time playing this game, and I can say I earned probably 75/85 of my champs through play time alone, but many times it was not enjoyable. It was not fun waiting for weeks trying to get a champ that I really wanted, or was FOTM. This happens all the time, and now with your new model you have new champs releasing at an even higher price than before. (this continual practice of $$/IP price increases through the lifetime of this company does not bode well with me and many of my friends. With increased prices you would expect more out of the game, but we have been seeing less and less pure content overall, DW I will get to S3) These increases show where this company is going, in my group's eyes, that is not a good place, not a place we are going to go with our time/money.

Making any change in any business takes all that research. I work in a constantly evolving industry (online loans and lead acquisition). I have to look at tons of data and make informed decisions based on that data. Sometimes it takes weeks/months to gather data to make those decisions, but we know what we need to make those decisions, and we make those decisions as soon as possible to see improvement ASAP.
My industry is more hard pressed for time than the gaming industry, I understand that, but the amount of changes that are being made and the types of changes don't seem to solve issues. When there are clear and obvious issues that can be fixed even a little (it seems as though) there is nothing done about them. Eve will always be my perfect example of this as she could have been made playable again, but no effort was set forth because "When we release her/stealth rework, it will be perfect/of high quality".

And that right there sums it up for me. If you know that this is such a constantly evolving piece, parts flying everywhere, little changes have large ripples, then why would you even try to sit for a YEAR to discover the "perfect" solution??? Knowing fully that this will get entirely re-vamped again because that is the nature of the beast.

If you are going to make massive changes what is the point? At the end of the day we both know that they will be adjusted.

The design philosophy that I see as a consumer is that of "perfection", but that cannot be achieved, so you shouldn't even try. Keying into making constant improvement is far more valuable to me as a consumer and player than waiting a year to play a character I paid cash for. Tweaking numbers slightly and monitoring effects over a 2 week period rather than internally testing and rewriting something over and over just to release it and have the community condemn it. It's something that has been happening for years now and I see no change on your end regarding this.

Right now with the S3 changes I have to say that I can only wonder "WHY?".
Why was this done now? What was the purpose of changing mechanics? (while on mechanics, can we please talk about changing the way armor values are displayed to players, PLZZZ)
From what I understand Morello is a fan of "It was too broke to fix it, so we started over (... just to realize that new thing was also too broke, so we have to start over...). I played his games, I know how this works, but why? With such a good understanding of how these games work, and how long it takes to make something "balanced" "Fair" and "Fun". Why all this effort to eventually revamp again?

To me it seems that the game is being treated more maturely than it is. This game is ONLY 3 years old. It NEEDs the tweaks and changes on a regular basis because the game is in discord now, especially with the recent changes. Making slight number adjustments to damage on a skill, It's CoolDown, Something. There are champs that get little to no attention for years just to get completely remade. This is a slap in the face of anyone who likes them the way they have been for a very long period of time, and it's sudden. It's not enjoyable to have that familiarity ripped from your hands.

Moving from my NES to the computer was hard, but once i was there and got used to it I was happy as anything with my new toy, but that change was not easy, that change took time. Your change in my NES scenario is taking my NES, smashing it with a hammer, and handing me a computer you just built. I am not happy with this new thing, I don't know it, never knew it, and never planned on it.


I understand that major changes need making sometimes, but me having a toy for a year just to have it taken away for the reason that "It sucked the way it was and couldn't be made better, we had to destroy it and make it from scratch for it to be fun". You saying that is telling me that my idea of "fun" was flawed all around.

Doing things behind the curtain is fine, but doing it at such a slow pace is what kills you. In my eyes, I have seen too many "soontm"s here. Things that were coming "soon" took over a year in some cases. I saw the posts, I know this to be true. At this point I have no faith in announcements. I honestly don't, I have been given no reason to believe in your company. I have literally been lied to (soon may be a relative term, but only use it within reason).I want to believe, but so long as these things continue I will continue to give you less of my time, because I feel as though it can be invested elsewhere with a better and more timely return.

"Here is this free game. You have to spend time earning the things in it to enjoy exactly what you want, and to go even further, to look like what you want, you have to spend $$.
Now I offer you this other free game. You don't have to earn things, you have them. You can look like what you want, but for a price, OR you can spend your own time building exactly what you want."


Honestly, who would pick #1 over #2? Creativity is the future of the online industry. Giving people opportunity to create what they want is paramount across the board. Customer choice is the spice of life. You guys have a lot of choice, at a super high premium. Others offer more choice at a lower premium. At what point do you guys combat this?

Whew... Now that I am done with that (for now).

Thank you. Seriously thank you guys for one of the best gaming experiences I ever had. Thanks for all these awesome times with friends. Thank you for giving me another simple thing to be good at and appreciate. It's really great.

You guys have come leaps and bounds ahead and were far ahead of your time. You guys are the most played game in the world, from next to nothing. This has inspired me to go to my greatest heights, for that there is no amount of thanks I could give.

I want you all to know at RIOT that you have helped me in many ways.

You guys have many impressive features that I haven't had the time to elaborate on or tell you I appreciate. Maybe in another thread later.

Thank you guys. I only want to see the best for you and your future. I want to keep appreciating your game for as long as you can! And I want the same for everyone.

Keep up the good work guys!

Again, thanks for the response, I know you guys are busy. If anyone could find the time another response would be much appreciated!
A user earlier posted a link to another Rioter alluding to our tech debt. Source was built from the ground-up to be moddable, scalable, and flexible when it comes to adding additional tech. League of Legends had much humbler beginnings, and if you read any interview of Tryndamere and Ryze (our president and CEO), you'll find that they always emphasize how the company and game have performed beyond their wildest dreams and has spiraled from a small reimagining of the MOBA genre to the market leader. The issue with simply attaching bells and whistles to League is that the hooks to put them on don't quite exist--and don't take what I say quite as gospel, because I'm a game designer with very limited technical knowledge (an engineer, producer, or tech designer would be much more knowledgeable about this subject)--so we have to work very hard to actually create those hooks whenever we want to expand the scope of the game. In addition, every little change we make causes disruption--a piece of code here inadvertently breaks something somewhere else that no one thought could happen. Valve also has the advantage of catering largely to the Western audience; but League of Legends is very, very global, and we have to keep that in mind with everything we do. A large update that you download in 2 minutes here may have to be hand-distributed by CD/DVD in another region. Introducing a potentially buggy feature--getting that "something, anything" out as soon as possible--can have catastrophic implications to our millions of players worldwide. That's why we have to polish, polish, and polish, and make sure everything is A-OK. We have to be proud and sure of our product.

Talking about things we're working on is a whole 'nother issue. There's lots of times where a Rioter will see a thread in GD, or a post on Reddit, and want to say "Oh man! I'm working on that!" or "You want X? We're going to deliver X+Y!" But we can't say that, and this goes true for all game development, because you never want to create expectations before you're ready. What if the project is cancelled? What if it's delayed? And delays can come for a lot of reasons... before the work is shoddy, because it's buggy, or even because you just hired a whole bunch of really awesome dudes onto the project, and they know how to make it 10 times better. That last one has actually happened a few times on projects I've been involved with, by the way. Yes, we do take our time... good things take time. Hopefully when X requested feature is released, we blow some minds and then some!

I'm not knocking on you with the following statement, nor am I really criticizing anyone with this point of view. I had it to before I joined the industry. I started my first job and had a revelation, then I joined Riot and had another one. Looking at it from an insider's point of view vs. an outsider's point of view is an eye-opener because you really get to see the gears in motion. Every company is different here, because they all have their own set of challenges to face, and the end-user really never gets to see the 90% of the iceberg that's underwater.


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Crownface

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by sultryvoltron View Post
Dota 2 will never overtake LoL for one simple reason.

LoL is enjoyable to watch. The S2 Finals were broadcast on public television in Korea, and the entire tournament was watched by TONS of people around the world. It is easy to watch because the art style and information telegraphing is very good and is simple and clear enough for spectators to enjoy.

Watching someone play Dota 2 is awful if you don't already have a complete knowledge of the game. For inexperienced players, half the time you can't even tell the heroes from the minions, and people just randomly die from skills that you didn't even see happen because the health bars and move animations are very hard to follow from a spectator's viewpoint.
That's a completely ridiculous assertion to make.

You're saying that people who have never played league before can understand what's going on, but people who don't completely understand Dota can't understand it?

I've played way more League than I have Dota 2, but I can't stand League tournaments, I think they're unbelievably boring.

I had only played about 30 games of Dota 2 when I watched the International 2, and I thought every single match was exciting and pretty easy to follow.

Does that mean that one is more exciting or easier to watch than the other? Absolutely not, and it's absurd to even try to make an argument for one or the other.


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sultryvoltron

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crownface View Post
That's a completely ridiculous assertion to make.

You're saying that people who have never played league before can understand what's going on, but people who don't completely understand Dota can't understand it?

I've played way more League than I have Dota 2, but I can't stand League tournaments, I think they're unbelievably boring.

I had only played about 30 games of Dota 2 when I watched the International 2, and I thought every single match was exciting and pretty easy to follow.

Does that mean that one is more exciting or easier to watch than the other? Absolutely not, and it's absurd to even try to make an argument for one or the other.
Finding a tournament boring does not mean it's hard to watch.

You might find watching golf boring, but that doesn't mean that the coverage wasn't good, or that the game was hard to understand.

The implications for LoL is that anyone can come in and watch it and have a generally good idea of what's happening in the game.

I still contend that's not true for Dota mostly because Dota is BAD at telegraphing information.


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iainB85

Senior Member

12-20-2012

It has all of those features you mention over LoL -- I just wish it was actually fun to play. They stuck to the traditional DotA mechanics so religiously I just can't help but feel like I am playing an incredibly dated game every time I try it.


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Crownface

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Valve also has the advantage of catering largely to the Western audience; but League of Legends is very, very global, and we have to keep that in mind with everything we do.
This part of your post is pretty unfair.

You do know that the winners of the International 2 were one of the several Chinese teams that participated, and continue to participate in many Dota 2 tournaments, right? There is also a huge Dota community in the Philippines as well as Korea.

Dota 2 is just as global as League.