Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? - Theming in LoL - @IronStylus, @FeralPony

1234511 ... 24
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Please read the thread before posting, otherwise feel free to ignore.


In this thread, we will discuss what it means to be a Champion in the League of Legends and why fully realizing this is important to all aspects of the game.
I'll be using quotes from Rioters in the official Champion Retrospective video to direct the discussion.

Before we start, I'd like to introduce ItemsGuy and myself, BestBilbo, as the authors of this thread.

ItemsGuy is going for an MFA in Interactive Design/Game Development at the Savannah College of Art and Design, and has taken multiple courses regarding character design in video games.

I, BestBilbo, am from EUW, my Elo is ~1600-1700 on my main 'Perifear'. I feel the same way as ItemsGuy and after we've bumped into each other I've learned a lot. We've been working together on these threads ever since.

Let's go:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Murguia - Art Director
It does go back to us being fans of the game - we want it to be epic - we want it to be the best thing out there.
Great! So do we. We're both longtime players of LoL and love the game dearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc 'Tryndamere' Merril - President/Co-Founder
I think what really defines League of Legends from a character perspective is the diversity of characters.
Epic! The amount of options in League are endless. To be able to play a true nightmare, a tricky jester, a badass chick riding a boar, or a scarecrow - AWESOME!



First of all - How is a playstyle defined?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
The value of a playstyle can be measured by how much the player is encouraged to think like the character they’re playing through coherency within the kit as well as its thematic unity and how distinct that method of thought is—because the more distinct it is, the more room it creates for counterplay, and the more counterplay there is in a game, the more fun and fresh each game will be.

It's not just about creating a more dynamic game (creating more flavors of the same role, such as siege/poke mage or high-mobility ambush mage or set-up and turtle mage), but about enriching the player's experience. In our opinion - playing a champion shouldn't simply be having access to 5 (or 9) abilities for 20-50 minutes, it should be stepping into a champion's shoes and romping around for a while.
We especially love characters where you don't just use the character but that you actually feel and are encouraged to play LIKE the character, such as Shaco.
He looks tricky, feels tricky, he plays tricky and his playstyle is so defined and different from the 'typical assassin' in League that he does not feel generic. Shaco plays like Shaco - like no other champion does.



How do we view current champion design versus how we feel it should be ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Jew - Producer
As a group of creative people, we look at it and think: What can we do with this, if we can make this the most awesome it could be without any constraints, what would that be?
We asked ourselves this, too, and we feel that we've answered that question the same way: with the coolest, out-of-this-world characters doing the most amazing things we've ever seen.

Sadly, we don't think the current state of champions are as awesome as they could be. Please keep your minds open about this: we know that Riot has worked hard on everything for years. I (Perifear) am not a designer while ItemsGuy is still studying, we just critically observe stuff and give our opinion.

Take Heimerdinger for example - we know he's being reworked - we just feel his concept could be stronger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
Whether you've played Heimerdinger or not, he's mostly known for his turrets--he's the only one that can make them, and they're fairly iconic to him as a character (a little inventor dude that makes gadgets). Everything after this, however, is where it goes in all the wrong directions. Heimerdinger's effectiveness doesn't come from intelligent use of his turrets or other inventions; instead, it comes from constant pokes with his rockets and sweet-spotting his grenades.
But what difference does it make? Didn't Heimerdinger invent these weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
That would be the case, if they actually felt like something special to him--but when it comes down to it, they're pretty much just "magic spells" with rocket and grenade skins. The fact that they both outclass his turrets--his most iconic ability--doesn't help his gameplay experience.
He feels less like a "Revered Inventor," and more like an engineer that wants to be a mage--and it shows, in that he's outclassed by just about every other mage out there, because they one-up him in every field they share with him (burst damage, AoE damage, crowd control), and the one thing that's characteristically Heimerdinger is left in the dust because it doesn't fit on the "standard mage kit."

Now, I'm well aware that he's facing a rework-taken from the notes on surrender@20, he is allegedly getting a new passive (X mana for every Y minion deaths), turrets with an ammo system that occasionally fire skill shots, more missiles, faster grenades, and an ult that empowers one of his main abilities.
While yes, this is a direct buff to him and allows him to stand with other mages in their respective field, but what does it do for our little inventor buddy?

It seems that you simply want to make him more powerful in the same way every other mage is, instead of using the rework as an opportunity to fix him from the ground-up and make him a champion all his own.
This can't really be done with his current kit as it is--no matter how you shift the numbers--because as long as he has two "general mage" abilities, they will always leave his turrets in the dust because he's more of a mage than an inventor.
Well if his turrets were like release Heimer's then he wouldn't be fun for everyone else!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
This is an assumption on the basis of Heimerdinger having the fortification of his turrets as well as the ability to poke like a mage, which is an imbalance in design, not just through numbers.
Making him rely on his inventions and playing more defensively would give him defined strengths and weaknesses that are both clear as day and thematically tied to his appearance and character, so that he is both satisfying to play and satisfying to counterplay.
Heimerdinger's turrets right now are used as a 'fire and forget' type of ability. Heimerdinger drops his turret and nearly all interaction between his turret and him ends.

We think that a lot of champions could benefit from a well-defined playstyle that enriches the player's gameplay experience.
We'd love to be Heimerdinger the 'Revered Inventor' rather than a mage that drops a turret then pokes.
We'd love for him to be a character with a playstyle that way more distinct from other AP's.
With a better defined playstyle, he'd revolve around creating things. Not a "just gonna drop a turret here' playstyle, but something innovative and entertaining.
Instead of using a "FREE HP5" passive, something like an innate ability to collect the scraps of slain minions, to use as a resource for his inventions.
You get to collect scrap and actually build/invent stuff, instead of only dropping your 'already built' invention on the ground.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan 'Morello' Scot - Lead Champion Designer
But what we really want to do - is create a good variety of champions, so that every player has a few to several champions that they are absolutely stoked about - instead of having like a whole slew of champions that people are not interested in and don't really buy into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
Thanks Morello, I was absolutely stoked about Zyra. I was. In the end she's just more of a generic burst mage - her plants are rather a minor bonus to her kit rather than the core of her playstyle - she isn't specifically, primarily about a 'Plant-ish' playstyle.

I had expected and would've loved a more 'anticipating' and 'caring' playstyle. Plants grow, you have to keep them healthy or they die.

They pop up immediately, they deal damage immediately, there's nothing really that captures the 'organic growing' process of plants - this is not how plants work.
Plants do not pop up out of the blue and are not instantaneous. In our opinion Zyra could have been so much more awesome. People don't pick Zyra for a 'plant' playstyle to use, for a specific strategy, or for a specific mechanic - while they could have done this, they did not.
She's picked because she's rather 'just another' good teamfighting burstmage.

Her Q is a generic AoE nuke, her E is a generic snare (this made somewhat sense with it being vines), her R is a generic AoE nuke with knockup.
Her abilities have almost nothing in common with nature, apart from the fact that Q pops up a plant, E does and R has a interaction with plants.

It's a start and it is cool, but it makes Zyra far from a defined 'Nature Mage Playstyle'. Nothing really grows, it's just on-off. In our opinion, this is far from the ultimate nature mage she could've been, she's 'just a mage' with a nature theme instead of the ultimate Nature Mage that uses plants - we feel this impairs how fun she could be.

Note that if they'd make her more about using plants this does not mean she wouldn't be good at teamfighting, like TF is still very useful in teamfights while his playstyle especially in the laningphase is about ganking with stacking his deck beforehand then using his ultimate.

What I'm trying to say with this is that Riot has tied generic abilities to 'theming visuals' instead of the other way around: Coming up with essential logical theming aspects that could be converted to abilities.

And the list can basically go on and on; I was stoked about Xerath - supposed to be the ultimate Long Range Siege Caster - in the end he still is kinda generic and doesn't have very superior range at all - most of his abilities get outranged by others. Kinda lame for a champion who is supposed to outrange anyone.


Could you give more examples ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
This'll be tricky for champions like Maokai, as people would probably take criticism towards the thematic unity of his kit very personally due to him being a very popular character, well-known for his jungling strength and effectiveness as a supportive tank...
However, we like to think he could fit more of an 'angry tree/forest' playstyle. His current kit doesn't really fit up to this sort of idea.

Why don't you think he does that currently ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
What exactly makes him significantally 'nature-ish' ? His sapling, indeed - as it can allow him to be more territorial like an angry tree would be, although it's most often used for burst damage or harass.

The rest of his abilities however, from the looks of it Riot basically said: 'Alright, we've got the sapling - cool and unique there - what more could we give to his kit to make him fit the role of a support-tank (stepping away from living up to his theme)?'

A knock-back CC ability: Not really 'nature/forrest'ish' at all. They just added some leaves/nature-particles to it, to fit. Is it good for his 'tank' role? Yes, but not for consistent theming.

A Snare ability: More 'nature/forrest'ish' as it's basically 'rooting' someone in place, however the ability doesn't work in a specefic 'nature-ish' way, yet again it's more or less an excuse: 'Yeah somehow it does make sense to use a snare, let's just simply do that'.
Is it good for his 'tank' role? Yes, but this sort of mobility is hardly something one would expect from a grumpy old stump.

A damage mitigation Ult & Passive: Passive could be argued about, healing and building it up (could be seen as growing) is nature'ish, but it's not very specific or distinctive, yet again more or less an excuse: It makes a bit off sense, let's simply do that.

His ult: I have no idea, it's just an ability they came up with an added nature particles to it - That's all. Are they good for his tank/support role?
Yes, they allow him to keep himself and his team alive for longer, but it's not done in a way that's readable or even a little relevant to his character, theming, or kit - just the role Riot decided he should fill.

'So basically you are trying to say that especially with Maokai, Riot tied random generic abilities/kit to theming visuals (adding nature particles in this case) instead of the other way around: Coming up with pure nature/forest stuff and then designing abilities around these nature/forest ideas.'

Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
Brand is another example, we feel he could be way more awesome and have a way more specific and unique playstyle/aproach to the game.

Fire spreads and burns. Does Brand do this ? Sure, to some certain degree he does - His passive, his ultimate spreads and encourages to burn people with his passive before ulting, aswell as his E spreading to targets if targets are ablaze.

His Q & W however - It does not matter if these particles would look like lazers or shadow magic instead -why?

Because the abilities do NOT specifically serve Brand as a unique 'fire-y' playstyle. Q is just a skillshot nuke - W an area of effect spell.

As said: His Q - W are abilities tied to visuals. They do not specifically make sense - they do not contribute to Brand playing a 'fire'y/burning/spreading fire' playstyle like his passive, E and ult do. His Q and W are just generic abilities with fire particles.

'Oh guess we need to give him some CC and utility, sure let's just make his Q stun targets if they are set ablaze'.
Fire doesn't stun, people
.
'Well that's cool and all but maybe it doesn't nessecarily make sense or live up to theme but Maokai is allright, Brand works as a mage, maybe it doesn't make alot of sense but what of it ?

Brandon 'Ryze' Beck likes to think theme is very important however - and we most certainly agree.

Brandon 'Ryze' Beck - CEO/Co-Founder: 'Another thing that is really important to us is 'theme.' We really want characters to have a really central theme.'

'Well.. Maokai is themed around being a magical tree, read his lore. Not 'angry forest' theme.'


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
If you have to make excuses for the inclusion of an ability on a champion, it probably doesn't belong there

What we are trying to say here is that it looks like Riot has designed a lot of kits or parts of kits out of the blue, hence the random stun in Brand's kit. 'We haven't done this before, this could be cool' and just added it to Brand's kit to give him some utility for the sake of giving him some utility.

The lore behind such stuff just basically makes up for the 'flaw'/unlogical approach of theme & playstyle, therefore we don't really think it belongs there as we like to think Maokai could be more like playing an angry old tree and bringing his forest to do this with him, we think Heimerdinger could be more of an inventor and Brand could be more about constantly burning people alive (this would capture a playstyle where you'd have to keep people burning with your passive in order to maximize damage output) rather than using your abilities in a specefic combo and that you've done your job.
'Well you aren't suggesting anything ! You just basically say Zyra, Maokai, Brand and Heimer and stuff are bad and could be better, yet you don't suggest anything !'

And we won't - For now atleast. We want to see how things go:

How do you feel about the subject, do you think the champions we've mentioned could live up more to their theme, would you like to have them a more unique approach/playstyle ?

Why and why not ?

---------------------

Feedback time !

Thread One: We explain why more unique playstyles could be awesome and how they are not nessecarily OP - Just different.
If you wanted to leave feedback how more specific playstyles would be OP - Read that thread.


Thread Two: We explain why not only we would like these more unique/dedicated playstyles, we also suggest why we might need them.

If you wanted to leave feedback such as - 'Well I don't want these changes, we don't need them !' please read that thread.

Thread Three, this thread: We explain how more unique playstyles could be done by living up more to the original concept of the champion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
We would like to hear your opinion on the arguments we've come up with and what Riot has to say about that.

Thank you for reading, please keep the discussion constructive ! If you are going to drop a comment here and just say 'No no but Brand already fire playstyle' or 'Zyra already plant playstyle' we will probably just ignore you, we've tried to dismantle these arguments in our thread. The only thing you would be doing is just observating/repeating the fact of how they work currently, which we are very well aware of:

'We are not saying the current kits of the champions are bad - we are saying they could live up more to their theme, creating a more appropriate character and a more dynamic, dedicated, and unique playstyle enriching the player's experience'.
@IronStylus: We personally have invited you to the discussion because I like to believe you are an open-minded guy that likes to participate in a discussion if it's constructive and the subject discussion-worthy. Please feel free to help us out.

FeralPony: I've personally invited you as you have responded to my 'Complexity for the sake of complexity' thread a while ago back on EUW. It was a very bad thread as the title was misleading - complexity for the sake of complexity is bad game design, agreed. However in the actual post I tried to dismantle that, yet obviously due to the title the discussion was all about 'the complexity for the sake of complexity' argument.

You did read my thread however as you gave a very detailed post where I am still absolutely grateful for - though you never came back.
These threads and especially this one is a larger, more detailed, better written & constructed, clarify'ing my/our points way better than I could ever have imagined.
Hope to see you jump in again !


Thank you guys,

Perifear & ItemsGuy

So TLDR ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphine View Post
To give a quick tl;dr for readers, am I correct in saying that what you aim to achieve is a stronger sense of thematic cohesion for champions, spanning from playstyle to role to artwork?
I'm just going to leave this smiley here:

EDIT: FAQ LIVE - SEE BELOW !

EDIT2: REDESIGNS ARE LIVE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CHECK THEM OUT, BENEATH THE FAQ !


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

LightningAcorns

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-19-2012

I've always felt like this especially for Heimerdinger and Maokai, though is there a specific reason you guys mention realistic elements/behavior when designing or living up to a playstyle or theme, I mean this is a game not reality, is there an explanation?

That said, I'd say this is an interesting read, I have read the previous threads as well so I recognized you. :y


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

theDreamer

Senior Member

12-19-2012

I have a polaroid picture of your name, and "don't believe his lies" written on the back.

And don't call me "Lenny."


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CaptainMĂ„rvelous

Member

12-19-2012

Jsut bump your old thread. You don't need to remake the same topic.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningAcorns View Post
I've always felt like this especially for Heimerdinger and Maokai, though is there a specific reason you guys mention realistic elements/behavior when designing or living up to a playstyle or theme, I mean this is a game not reality, is there an explanation?

That said, I'd say this is an interesting read, I have read the previous threads as well so I recognized you. :y
Good question ! <Reserved for FAQ>

FAQ

1. Why ? - why do you opt for more unique/dedicated playstyles, are they nessecary ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
Not only do we think this would make League of Legends cooler and a better game – the changes we propose might even be nessecary due to oversaturation.

Champion production can’t go on forever, yet people might be bored if champion production stops. This is explained in detail in our ‘Second’ thread.

NOTE: The changes we propose are so drastic they would probably upset the current playerbase therefore it would fit better for a sequel. We’ll call this LoL 2 for now.

Funfact: Morello has actually indirectly approved of our ideas and even mentions how it would upset the current playerbase:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think we define skill floor and ceiling differently. Let me talk about that;

Skill floor refers to a minimum amount of skill needed to play the character and not just die and feed all the time. This is not attached to skill ceiling!

Skill ceiling is the amount of additional power/optimization/success you can receive through skill and practice. We like increasing this on many champions.

Many champions can easily have their skill cap increased via a "less is more" design, which not only keeps in line with clean and sensible, but adds skill. In the Diana example, what if the skillshot had 1/2 the cooldown and 1/2 the movement speed? That would increase skillcap, but also would leave skill floor near where it is.

Right now, I'm working with the designers to use these types of levels to increase skill ceiling without making your first game with a character be all WTF. Some champions will be more normalized (different players want different things, so we're never going to make a all Oriannas), but there's some easy wins. I'd also like to do some changes on existing champions to bring this out, though everyone will get mad when I do :P
Source: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...66681#29466681
-------------


2. To create these more unique/dedicated playstyles you use the theme of a champion as a tool and try to capture the very essence of the theme, creating a very defined playstyle– why do you use ‘theming’ as a tool ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
Because it’s only logical to do so and it’s freaking cool – Heimerdinger could be more of an actual inventor rather than the dude who ‘just drops’ a turret here and there and has 3 other kinda generic mage abilities combined with the turret.


Zyra could be more like an ultimate Plant-mage, right now she’s more or less a typical burst mage in a Nature skin – her plants are ‘not that important’ when playing her, basically you could still do really well with Zyra without using a single plant, kinda lame for the champion that should’ve been all about the plants in the first place.

Zyra is picked because she has very strong teamfighting and damage – she isn’t picked because she is the ultimate plant mage that can use her plants for a specefic playstyle/approach to a game.
------------


3.1 When using theming as a tool you also like to mention/use realistic elements – why ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
Because real things make sense. Real things are things people can become acquainted with before they even touch League of Legends.
3.2 Okay - but why is it important ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Using real things really only works if said champions perform and behave like the source material, so players don’t have to completely forget what they know about that source material in the context of LoL. In League, fire is no longer something that consumes and spreads, but burst magic damage that can sometimes stun.

Using realistic elements is a very clear and logical approach, here a quick quote from Jesse Schell, game designer and author of The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses.

"Really, the problem is that games have only recently emerged as anything like a serious medium of expression. It will take time for the world to grow used to this idea.
But we have no reason to wait. We can create games with powerful themes right now. But why, why do this? Out of a selfish need for artistic expression ? No. Because we are designers. Artistic expression is not our goal. Our goal is to create powerful experiences.

It is possible to create games that do not have themes or that have very weak themes. However if our games have unifying, resonant themes, the experiences we create will be much, much stronger.

The primary benefit of basing your design around a single theme is that all of the elements of your game will reinforce one another, since they will all be working toward a common goal.
Sometimes it is best to let a theme emerge as you are creating the game. The sooner you have settled on a theme, the easier things will be for you, because you will have an easy method of deciding if something belongs in your game or not: If it reinforces the theme, it stays, but if it doesn't, it goes."


Now, while Mr. Schell here is talking about themes in the larger scale--entire games--it's still very applicable to the designing of champions (after all, what is a champion but a very small "game" within the larger game of League of Legends?
Choosing your champion is simply choosing the experience you wish to have within a League match, and what are games but vessels for such experiences?), and the same rules can apply.

The stronger and more unified a champion's theme, the more fulfilling playing that champion would be--even without the competitive context of LoL (making enjoying a champion less "I can use this champion to beat my opponents and win games!" and more "I really enjoy playing this champion!"--taking the joy of "winning" out of the mix to expose the true value of a champion).
--------


4. Why is using lore as a tool to justify a design a bad sign ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
Because all it does is justifiy an illogical stupid approach/ability on a champion’s kit, this is can be tied to ‘Burden of Knowledge’ immediately.

Mordekaiser is a VERY good example: You look at his splash art – expected to get crushed by him swinging his mace around crumbling the ground where the giant mace hits..

He turned out to be a rather ‘Mage-ish’ character that barely swings his mace and makes ghosts out of his victims, like what ?

This is Burden of Knowledge and would mean new players are encouraged to read champion lore to understand some abilities ? This is completely anti-fun.

People either have to get destroyed by Mordekaiser X number of times before they understand how he works or read his lore – where you can read the huge guy in the huge bulky armour with a giant mace is more of a licht hat controls a ghost army.

Much like Graves – where you are like: What the heck, what is this smokescreen ability ? A shotgun doesn’t behave like that.
People shouldn't be forced to read Graves’s lore – there it states he has a modified shotgun made for him instead of him having a regular shotgun, seriously ?

Funfact: In this recent thread concercing Sion’s theming a Riot’er ‘IronStylus’ has actually mentioned Mordekaiser the way we did before. Quite he says the same thing after we already said it.
---------

5. Wouldn’t more unique/defined playstyles be OP ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
No – just different from other characters. This is explained in detail in our/my first thread.

Current TF is a good example – he has a specefic dedicated kit to being the ultimate ‘Ganking Mage’ that encourages his theme and playstyle: Looking at the opponents hand (Ultimate) and then preparing his hand with his cards, The Appropriate Pick-A-Card, Stacked deck, items like Lich Bane.

‘Never lost a fair game.. or played one. – Twisted Fate.

More unique/defined playstyles are fun because they are original and if they are as defined as they can be the more counterplay there is and the more defined strengths and weaknesses they have.

A perfect example is Darius, he sees little competitive play and doesn’t have that good results either yet there has been HUGE amounts of QQ about him.

He is all about slicing up people with his axe – with his passive he is encouraged to stick to a target and then finishing them off – much like an executioner that has to swing the axe a second or even a third time because the head didn’t quite fall of yet.

‘I can’t trade with Darius so I QQ about him – I’m not willing to accept the fact that Darius is supposed to be a lane bully and is SUPPOSED to win trades like this due to him being a good duel champion.’ – Darius is about sticking to a target and then finishing the target off – you probably were too long near Darius.

If this happens Darius doesn’t build unavoidable grave for you to tumble in – if you die like this you chose your own fate.


‘OMG TF so OP gank all time’ – Well maybe you shouldn’t be pushing to the enemy tower all the time.


‘Ahri OP MOBILITIY MAGE KILL ME’ – You probably gave her too much room to close in on you and kill you.


IMO this type of QQ has hurt Ahri WAY too much – she’s supposed to be an Assasin to kill lads and rush up to them – right now she barely sees competitive play, I don’t see a good reason to pick her over something like Orianna: Tons of damage (if not more), epic CC, epic utility.

Right now I feel Ahri is lackluster, she’s more or less a generic mage right now with a weaker ultimate/without a ‘game-changing’ ultimate like let’s say Twisted Fate, Orianna, Cassiopea.

Riot has a history of nerfing champions just because people QQ about the champion. Assasins kill people, this does not make them OP, it should make them doing good well at killing stuff but sacrificing some power for that strength (Such as CC, utility).

Such balance changes is treating the community like a bunch of babies, it's no more than a sanctimonious 12 year old crying and begging for a higher grade on his test because he has some childish reason why he got such a low grade in the first place. Imagine the kid was not learning for his test the day before, but playing video games while he should've been working on school.

Similar like the community: 'Oh guys no problem my lovely children, we don't want you to use your brain, we'll just nerf the champions because they are too hard for you !
-------------


6. ‘Champion X doesn’t need changes – maybe some abilities don’t make sense but they are still cool !’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
Absolutely – those abilities are cool. Graves’s smokescreen doesn’t really fit a ‘pure shotgun theme’ and the argument ‘read his lore he has modified shotgun’ is burden of knowledge, this does NOT mean we don’t like the ability. Though the ability probably fits a champion that uses smoke entirely to screw up his enemies better.
------------


7.1 ‘You are getting rid of alot of options/abilities for a champion’s kit with this design-philosophy – how is this good, how is this being creative ?’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
As said in the previous answer – if we could we would probably get rid of Graves’s smokescreen, because it doesn’t fit a ‘100% pure shotgun’ character/theme, though we WOULD convert the ability into a champion that uses smoke entirely to wreck his enemies, because it is a cool ability.


7.2 How are you being creative ? You are restricting yourself from alot of stuff !


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
Creativity for a game is all about the limitations/restrictions you have – compare it with abstract art and readable or realistic art; such as cartoons or realistic portret art.

Most of the time abstract art just looks like some paint squirted onto a canvas, the average reaction of people: a 5 year old can do this.

This is similar to Maokai and Alistar – they aren’t defined characters, Alistar is rather a dude that only looks like a cow, not nessecarily plays like one, the simply gave him a knock-up, knock-back, heal and damage reduction + CC reduction rather than being than playing the ‘rampaging bull’.

Maokai is basically ‘just a support-tank’ in a ‘tree-jacket’, he just looks like a tree, he doesn’t nessecarily play like one, only his sapling is a ‘forest-ish’, the rest of his kit is all CC and tank-abilities for the sake of CC/tank-abilities: Random Knockback, snare, damage reduction circle.
These are designs that aren’t defined and aren’t really original – alot of people could have come up with this, even if they don't have any understanding of champion-design at all.

The more you are restricted when designing a video game, the more creative you must be to produce something with quality, like having the assignment you have to visually paint something but have to make it original along the way.

How do you portray what you must paint ? Cartoon-style, completely realistic, black-white, alot of blends of colours using every colour of the rainbow but still keeping the image very much read-able ? THAT’S the creativity appropriate for game design.

Having a cow and a tree and giving both characters some random CC/abilities is like squirting random paint on a canvas, adding abilities that make sense but are still very cool and original is hard and requires creativity.

Kha’Zix is a cool example: You see he has wings – He can ‘fly’/’leap’. He has razor sharp blades – he can slice you. He has spikes on his back – he fires them.
Cho’Gath on the other hand, his silence: Random ability that does not match his appearance. If you look at Cho’Gath there is NO way someone would guess: Well I’m pretty sure this guy is going to ‘Feral Scream’ at me silencing me for a while – lol.

8.‘Do you think current champion-designs restricts the game from having other cool abilities ?’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
YES. Coming back at Maokai and Alistar.

Imagine an abilitiy where some nature dude summons a line of trees as impassable terrain for X seconds – cool idea ? We think so. Can we have such an ability right now ? No not at all, because people would immediately realize: ‘Whatdafuq this Champion X summons trees in a line yet Maokai, who is an actual tree/treant does not have this ability !?’

Imagine an ability called ‘Bullrush’ – I don’t think I have to explain how that would work in detail, like in cartoons we watched when we were kids: An angry bullcharging and then dashing forward with alot of aggression and speed.

Cool ability ? We like to think so, could we have such an ability right now ? Not at all, because Alistar is already designed and has some random CC tied to him, if Riot would use this ‘Bullrush’ ability for an upcoming champion people would be like ‘WTF BULLRUSH WOULD FIT MORE FOR ALISTAR, THE ACTUAL BULL IN THIS GAME’.

These are a few examples of how a few simple yet original abilities that are very cool yet can’t be seen because the characters that would fit with these abilities are already designed with random abilities on their kit, not really fitting their appearance & theme. It’s sad, but it’s the entire reason we’ve made these threads.
-----------------------------

FAQ WILL OBVIOUSLY, POTENTIALLY BE UPDATED WITH NEW QUESTIONS.

---

*We highly recommend reading the FAQ before questioning some Redesigns, it is very much possible we've already answered your question over there*

(possible) REDESIGNS:

Starting off with Nocturne, continueing in Alphabetic order afterwards, reason I start with Nocturne because I personally like the redesign, the argument we give are quite logical/solid, very appopriate changes:

-Nocturne, the Eternal Nightmare
I’ve always felt Nocturne should be like this. If Nocturne does not snowball (wich he is even encouraged not to do so as it’s common as a jungler to give away kills) he mostly end up being the b*tch of a team.

Ult in, walk out. Building Nocturne with alot of damage, you’ll die. Build him tanky ? You barely feel having a presence as a dude who SHOULD literally haunt scare and assasinate people.

With these changes Nocturne IMO would be much more fun to play and got an already existing passive switched around that fits HIM better, he’ll get to haunt scare and kill people now, he’ll be able to do everything what you think he should do when looking at his splash art, rather than turning out to be the ‘’ulting’’ minor meatwall tank in a team.

Yet again: RIOT PLS !
---------

-Ahri, the Nine-tailed Fox.
More of a defined playstyle rather than 'Generic mage with extra mobility'.

-Akali. the Fist of Shadow.
Nitpick-champion, already kind of a stealthy sneaky shadow'ish Assasin, but a bit more emphasis on that with this redesign.

-Alistar, the Minotaur.
Gets to behave like an actual raging bull now - no longer a dude that can do nothing without teammates: You have to watch your back or this mad bull will come after you.

-Amumu , the Sad Mummy.
Nit-Pick champion, a bit more emphasis on being a lonely mummy: Passive, Q, W, E unchanged, only changes his R:
Instead of ‘randomly’ giving him a CC ability for the sake of CC ability he now has an ability that does something similar but fits his theme and appearance: The Sad Mummy actually gets to hug people now. Very funny.

-Anivia, the Cryophoenix
She gets to behave more like an actual Icebird now.

--Annie, the Dark Child.
While 'Annie with the giant demonic teddybear' is very common, she could've been the mage that's all about the interaction between her and her bear in the first place - Adding WAY more depth, thus less straightforward and a much much higher skillcap.

-Ashe, the Frost Archer.
‘No really, put that apple on your head.’ – Ashe

Nitpick-champion, already much of a frost arches though now she actually gets to aim and be precise (emphasis on being the ultimate ‘bow’ champion, rather than only having her ult capturing this aspect currently. Cool.

-Brand, the Burning Vengeance.
Yep, you'd probably see this coming: This guy is going to burn you alive - literally.

-Caitlyn, the Sheriff of Piltover.
This chick is going to snipe you - an aspect that is only truely defined with her ult currently.

-Cho'Gath, the Terror of the Void.
Extremely unique playstyle and very much fitting - Cho'Gath placeholder included !

-Corki, the Daring Bombardier.
More emphasis on being an actual pilot, more of a defined pilot/'flying a plane' playstyle while making Corki less straight forward.

Diana, Scorn of the Moon
'Moontheme' isn't very readable, none of Diana's abilities really make sense, they are pretty random and adding 'moonparticles' just to make them fit is kind of a bad sign.

A 'Scythe' playstyle hacking and slashing and killing her enemies while still having her high mobility gameplay: Cool.

-Dr. Mundo, the Mad Man of Zaun.
More distinctive playstyle with appropriate abilities that match this playstyle and his theme.

Place-holder champion. -Edmund, the Abomination.
My first reaction when I red ItemsGuy's Alistar redesign was: 'No no please no, okay maybe Alistar's current kit doesn't really fit him as the ultimate raging bull, but god his current kit is so fun and satisfying !'

As I was in a skype conversation with him, he laughed and sent me a link.
Introducing 'Edmund' the champion with Alistar's current kit that fit him perfectly, readable, appropriate, and most of all: a very fun and fitting appearance + lore making a very cool and unified character. Oh yeah; Edmund would be the first black champion entering the League, people have been asking/wondering for one for quite some time now.

-Ezreal, the Prodigal Explorer
Guess what ? The character that could've been the ultimate explorer actually is the ultimate explorer now. You are encouraged to move, ALOT.
Very distinctive and unique: RIOT PLS !

-Fiddlesticks, the Harbinger of Doom.
He actually behaves and plays like a scarecrow now, freaking awesome ! And most of all: Increased the depth of Fiddlesticks by TONS.
If you have played Fiddlesticks alot I think most of us would consider him rather dull/a bit boring, it's always the same, walk up to people: E then Q W, for teamfights: R in, (zyhonas), pop cooldowns. Not alot of specific depth or decision-making.

-Fiora, the Grand Duelist.
Current R: Try to hit it with as much targets as you can - not really fitting for a champion who's supposed to be an ultimate duelist.
Redesign Fiora is more defined as a duelist and cuts her opponents with style.

Sidenote: Fiora's current ult moved to Master Yi's Redesign.

-Fizz, the Tidal Trickster.
Fishy assasin that has interaction with his shark - not just a 'I'll shoot a skillshot here and something will pop out of it and knock the target up'.

-Gangplank, the Saltwater Scourge.
ENJOY YOUR VISITS TO THE DEPTHS OF THE SEA ! – A pirate that is more of a pirate now: A pirate is a sneaky unfair character, they plunder/take what they want too and are gone before you could even react. Keep this in mind.

-Garen, the Might of Demacia.
Spin to win kids – no drastic changes, but makes sense what he did change. Fine.

-Gragas, the Rabble Rouser.
Appropriate, logical changes.

-Graves, the Outlaw.
Full 100% Shotgun manliness, currently what his Q and R does reflect very well.

-Hecarim, Shadow of War.
Nit-pick champion, only tweaked some abilities, made them fitting to his theme and appearance.

-Heimerdinger, the Revered Inventor.
You'd see this coming, THIS GUY GETS TO INVENT HIS OWN SH*T.

-Janna, the Storm's Fury.
More of an actual 'Windstorm' now - kept her very logical and cool abilities Monsoon and Howling Gale because they fit perfectly.

-Karthus, the Death Singer.
Nothing ‘Death Singer’ about him aside from his ult right now: Q is like exploding skittles, random magic wall, random AoE damage circle around him – don’t fit the theme and isn’t a defined specific playstyle.

Karthus gets to be the ultimate champion that uses some groove and boogy now !

Note: Similar like saying the Smokescreen on Graves isn’t really appropriate but is still very cool for a champion that uses smoke entirely, same thing goes for Karthus ult: ItemsGuy has a few champions designed of his own where he has converted these abilities to complete new characters/champions.

-Kassadin, the Void Walker.
Slight changes, more emphasis of 'cutting through space'. Obviously keeping Rift Walk in there, as that's core of his character and playstyle.

-Kayle, the Judicator.
Trying to capture the opposite feel that Morgana gives with her redesign, I suggest you read Morgana's aswell !

-Kennen, the Heart of the Storm.
Nitpick-champion, already was a cool pure ‘lightning rat’, though kit redesigned to a high mobility playstyles with more emphasis how lightning ‘chains’ and seaks out and hits nearby targets.

Basically kept the same concept but made it more unique, more of a defined playstyle and less of a ‘Hello I’m Kennen the walking ult’.

Kha'Zix, the Voidreaver.
Appropriate changes for a specific well-theme'd playstyle, passive converted to Nocturne's Redesign, evolution mechanic moved to something more appropriate: Viktor.

-Kog'Maw, the Mouth of the Abyss.
More emphasis on capturing an 'acid' feel and playstyle, wich currently only Bio-Arcane Barrage and Caustic Spittle capture.

-Leblanc, the Deciever.
OH MY GAWD YES RIOT PLS !!

‘the Deciever’ is barely where Leblanc is known for currently. Instead of being a huge misleading surprising character/element her kit SHOULD’VE captured she’s more known for the ‘Omg noob champ Q R epic damage’ champion.
With this redesign she actually gets to be the ultimate deciever, so freaking appropriate and cool.

-Lee Sin, the Blind Monk.
Currently Lee sin doesn't play like he's a blind monk, it's just part of his appearance, not gameplay. (Aside from a MINOR part in his E ability)
A blink monk should use their monk abilities/senses to try and locate the enemy with sound and patience and then beating them with masterful marterial arts.

Leona, the Radiant Dawn
Much like Diana, 'Sun' isn't a very readable theme, while still keeping the element/part of the character in there, Leona is more focused on a playstyle with her huge shield now. (Her sword isn't relevant to her in any way anyway, she doesn't do damage with it really and 'dashing up to people with a sword ? How exactly ?)

Lulu, the Fae Sorceress
Lulu's abilities aren't really readable, she spews out random magic lines that should slow you and so on, she could still very much be a character if her entire readability and kit revolves around Pix: Making Pix the centerpiece of her playstyle and kit, while keeping alot of abilities/elements of current Lulu in there, such as her ult and polymorph.

-Malphite, the Shard of the Monolith.
Added WAY more depth rather than the dude that R's in and then presses Q, W, E mindlessly after. Also more counterplay available rather than 'initiate before this guy does'. With this Redesign he would be more of a walking rock with great force, yet again another: RIOT PLS !


EDIT: POST TOO LONG SCROLL DOWN FOR THE REST OF THE REDESIGNS


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Skyhawke

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Two Questions:

How many threads do you plan on making about this subject?

and

Are you an alt account of ItemsGuy? Is this a Demosthenes/Locke thing like in the book Ender's Game? I'm really starting to wonder..


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DonquixoteDoflamingo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-19-2012

but doesn't playstyle just depend on how you decide to play a champion? :^]]


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

theDreamer

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhawke View Post
Two Questions:

How many threads do you plan on making about this subject?

and

Are you an alt account of ItemsGuy? Is this a Demosthenes/Locke thing like in the book Ender's Game? I'm really starting to wonder..
But Demosthenes/Locke disagreed with each other.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FabulousJeremy

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Riot's new champs are getting more and more thematically linked as a whole. Probably the best example now is Vi. She's a badass female rebel who's all about punching things with her giant fists. Her visuals scream punching, her kit is full of punching, and I think as soon as you hear the log-in music you'll understand how complete of a character she is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBphxrYgJOg

Though I feel like Riot should rework older concepts to fit together more thematically.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonquixoteDoflamingo View Post
but doesn't playstyle just depend on how you decide to play a champion? :^]]
This is true to some certain degree - however as we mention it's also alot about the coherency with the kit. We like to think TF has more of a defined playstyle as a ganker as his kit makes him a natural ganker.
Now go play a few games as Twisted Fate, don't use your ultimate to gank at all, just use it to be quicker back into lane or something.

-'OMG RETADER TF NO GANG MY LINE'
-'WTF PICK TWISTED FATE BUT NOT GANKING - WHAT ?!' '
-'Hey buddy, you are supposed to gank with Twisted Fate dude - G.A.N.K !'


TF gets picked for his additional, specific strength of map presence created by his 'card master' playstyle - allowing him to stack his deck with his own aces (Sheen/Lich Bane, the right Pick-A-Card, and Stacked Deck), look at the enemy team's hand (ultimate), and then make his play.

Now take Annie for example - Can she gank effectively ?

Sure she can, though does Annie's kit have specific dedicated mechanics to improve strength of ganking ? No, not at all. Her stun-passive is just for the sake of giving her CC, it wasn't designed in the light 'Oh well we should specifically make Annie about strong map presence and better ganking, let's give her something that'll make her roaming-power/ganks stronger.'

That said, ganking with Annie is part of her skill cap - It is/can be very effective but her kit doesn't obviously scream: 'Gank lanes matey !' that TF's kit does scream, and loudly.
A good Annie will gank/roam if possible, a bad Annie will not.

For TF this is a different story - yes a good TF will gank a bad one will not, but it is different: His ultimate & kit is so dedicated to a 'Ganking Mage' playstyle and thus specifically making his ganking stronger - it's more part of him, more part of his character, ganking is more of a playstyle specifically for him - it's more part of his actual kit.
This changes the mindstate from 'A good TF will gank' to 'TF is all about the ganks in the first place', hence all the people QQ'ing at you if you do not use your ultimate to gank at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FabulousJeremy View Post
Riot's new champs are getting more and more thematically linked as a whole. Probably the best example now is Vi. She's a badass female rebel who's all about punching things with her giant fists. Her visuals scream punching, her kit is full of punching, and I think as soon as you hear the log-in music you'll understand how complete of a character she is.

Though I feel like Riot should rework older concepts to fit together more thematically.
There is NOTHING unlogical or 'not fitting' considering Vi. She's absolutely amazing. Agreed !

REST OF THE REDESIGNS (FAQ post was already too long)

-Malzahar, the Prophet of the Void.
RIOT PLS YES !
A very unique and defined playstyle yet again ALOT different and distinctive from other mages, absolutely appropriate and funny being the ultimate master of the crabarmy, cool as balls !

-Maokai, the Twisted Treant.
This guy is a living angry forest and he'll make sure that he'll grow the ground to his advantage making him a very terratorial grumpy old stump.

-Master Yi, the Wuyu Bladesman.
True samurai playstyle: They are swift and certain.

-Miss Fortune, the Bounty Hunter.
Guess what – Miss Fortune actually gets to hunt for bounty now.

-Morgana, the Fallen Angel.
RIOT PLS RIOT PLS RIOT PLS !

This is one of my ultimate freakin' favourites out of all these redesigns of ItemsGuy, read it and sketch the situation: You are the support yet the freakin' centerpiece of teamfighting, everyone literally should move and BE around you.

This playstyle/redesign reminded me of an awesome clip out of the movie troy (scroll to 1:25, watch from there), suit yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLtXIlkyYA

-Nasus, the Corator of the Sands
Specefic playstyle with stacking souls/spirits, made Nasus more of a readable and a defined character, should also fix his current 'Guys cya in 40 minutes got to farm Q' problem.

-Nidalee, the Bestial Huntress.
Get's to hunt people. (While making her Humand/AP playstyle more appropriate and reliable).

-Nocturne, the Eternal Nightmare, see the start of the redesigns, he's actually the first one I mention, I did this intentionally because I find him one of the most solid redesigns/arguments we give, being very cool and extremely appropriate.

--Nunu, the Yeti Rider.
RIOT PLS !
Completely changed Nunu to a champion with WAY more depth. Currently he is more or less nothing but a silly slowmachine and a walking buff.
Willump gets to be more of the Yeti he already wanted to be while Nunu has some funny abilities that fit extremely well.
The new ultimate of Nunu: LOL, RIOT, PLS !

-Olaf, the Berserker.
Nit-pick champion, olaf is already very much a berserker, therefore: Passive, Q, W, E unchanged, only tweaked R to lay an ‘emphasis’ on being a berserker that tunnelvisions on a particular target and doesn’t give a sh*t.

It’s frustrating however how you are currentely barely able to do anything against a fed ulting Olaf destroying your carry, guess what ?

‘The more distinctive/defined a playstyle is the more counterplay there is’
With this Ragnarok change he’s more of a ‘realistic’ Berserker, while offering more options how to counterplay this reckless bad@ss.

-Pantheon, the Artisan of War.
Nit-pick champion, Pantheon was already a manly spartan, though now he has WAY more depth. Very cool interaction and options of choice making: Being aggresive with Spear, using Shield for some defense.

Pantheon will be far from straightforward now, while still being the manly Spartan – awesome.

Place-holder champion: -Peatrice, the Venus Deathtrap.

Cho'Gath now has a more readable and appropriate kit/playstyle living up to his original 'source of inspiration'.
The playstyle of eating stuff and getting bigger and bigger is still a very awesome concept though, Peatrice does this.

-Poppy, the Iron Ambassador.
Nitpick-champion, not alot of drastic changes, but appropriate ones.

-Rammus, the Armordillo.
Currently his kit had two weird things: He taunts for the sake of taunting, it’s in there just for the sake of giving Rammus CC, it doesn’t really fit his character nor theme as you have NO idea how he actually taunts people, he just walks up to them, touches them and then you should ‘just assume’ this guy just taunts you for whatever reason.

Same for his current ult: You don’t see how or why he makes the earth crumble/shake around him, Rammus can just walk (normally) as if nothing’s happening. ‘OK’ – I guess.

With this redesign he is still a tank and a character that shouldn’t or can’t be ignored while keeping the very already cool elements of Rammus right now: Defensive Ball Curl (hiding in his shell) and rolling around in as a Ball. Cool. Appropriate. Fine.

-Renekton, the Butcher of the Sands
Made renekton more readable as a character rather than 'Crocodile with a weapon' to a more specefic highly aggressive butcher-playstyle.

-Riven, the Exile.
100% focused around building her huge ass sword while still keeping a 'highly mobile' 'sword/battle dancer' rythm.

Placeholder champion: -Ronan, the Fisherman.
We are very well aware of the fact we would have to explain if we'd replace Blitzcrank with Ronan. The problems Blitzcrank has is that he is not very readable, for example you look at his splash art or his in-game appearance and you have NO idea what this guy is going to do.

Secondly, while we always want to keep as many champions in the game as we can with all these redesigns, a 'Robot' playstyle is just very vague, currently Blitzcrank is yet again a champion that is completely designed with abilities for the sake of giving him these effects/CC, he is not unified, just a bunch of abilities 'squirted on a canvas'.

Therefore here Ronan, the Fisherman. The supportive champion with a 'Fisherman' playstyle, extremely readable, logical and keeping/having a similar ability to Blitzcrank's Rocket Grab.

-Rumble, the Mechanized Menace.
Nit-pick champion, though made him even more of a aggresive mechanized yordle, specific dedicated 'playstyle' due to some awesome and very appropriate changes !
-Ryze, the Rogue Mage
Typical mage playstyle while increasing his read-ability and depth, making him less straightforward, more understandable and less of a 'facerolling over your keyboard' experience.

-Sejuani, the Winters Wrath
She gets to be more of a walking Blizzard.

-Shen, the Eye of Twilight.
Shadow-Ninja, cool.

Sion, the Undead Champion
This dude is definetely getting a visual rework and most-likely a kitrework aswell, well we provide one aswell: Making his kit more appropriate to his theme, having a defined 'Undead warrior' playstyle.

-Syvana, the Half Dragon.
Way more harmony and depth between being a human being and in dragon form rather than what currently is: Well it's just Syvana with some empowered stuff attached with a 'Dragon-like appearance'.

-Singed, the Mad Chemist.
Still runs around like a total psychopatic maniac but gets to do more than toggling Q on and off, flinging and slowing people.
Adds way more depth while keeping the very element of Singed in there, very cool.

-Skarner, the Crystal Vanguard.
Nitpick-champion, already much of a scorpion though with this redesigns even more of a scorpion, giving him a very cool and appropriate ability in replacement of his current E (wich is just a random blue magic line animation right now ???).
Plus making him more unique, less straightforward (getting rid of the constant bashing your finger on Q that barely involves skill, just needless spam-ability).

-Sona, the Maven of the Strings.
RIOT PLS !
Sona actually gets to play the appropriate chords/music for every situation rather than mashing on 3 buttons with an ult (This is what she does currently).
The only thing that captures a ‘Gotta prep this song for an effect’ is her Power Cord passive, with this redesign she actually gets to be a very defined and unique character: Like playing a little version of Guitar Hero in League. Really cool.
Note: Her Ultimate would be her bread and butter skill and would have a fairly low cooldown.

-Swain, the Master Tactician.
The Master Tactian can have more tactical approach to a game, very defined. Cool.

-Taric, the Gem Knight.
YET AGAIN: GOD YES, RIOT PLS.
More interaction/playstyle as the ultimate dude that uses Gems and yep yet again:
I just realize how Riot has designed supports (especially older ones) for the sake of being lame/less impactfull, with Taric’s new Crystal Prison ability his presence in a game/teamfight will be huge.
Changes like this will absolutely make arguments such as ‘Why is playing Support in DotA way more fun ?’ invalid. Very cool.

-Teemo, the Swift Scout.
Nitpick Champion, already much of a scout. Not alot of changes, but for example a very good and appropriate change on his ultimate, he actually gets encouraged to scout ahead now instead of placing shrooms in one particular area.

-Tristana, the Megling Gunner.
Some minor tweaks such as tweaking some scaling to have the player feel the are able to use the entire kit to it's full potential and distinctive playstyle. Appropriate and logical changes.

-Trundle, the Cursed Troll.
Nitpick Champion, already much of a typical troll. Only changes on his passive and his ult. For his ultimate: Extremely readable and appropriate for his character (his current ult is just some cloud of filth: God knows what that should do – it’s not readable, you’d have to read the tooltip to know what it does), some nasty gross thing that jumps on you and that starts to nibble on your head, I immediately thought of Gollum in LOTR III, appropriate !

-Tryndamere, the Barbarian King.
Adding way more depth to him rather than spin in -> chicken -> rightclick -> ult -> heal & spin out.
Higher skill-cap, more depth, more dynamic gameplay while still being the ultimate reckless raging barbarian.

-Twitch, the Plague Rat.
Still very much the rat you are used to though now you don't have to buy Runaan's to spread your Deadly Venom stacks: This redesign focuses on Twitch spreading his filth/disease.

-Varus, the Arrow of Retribution.
Specefic, more readable character with a more unique and defined playstyle according to a certain theme.

-Veigar, the Tiny Master of Evil.
Making the little evil guy a more defined anti-mage that's more fitting to a character who gets underestimated early on but will grow stronger with time plus getting rid of the generic 'X for the sake of X' design-philosophy.

--Viktor, the Machine Herald.
OH GOD YES THIS MAKES SENSE !

-Vladimir, the Crimson Reaper.
How to make a 'Blood Bender' more of a 'Blood Bender'. This redesign specifically focuses on playing around with health/blood, you literally bend it out of you for others to help or to do damage to enemies or steal blood from enemies to help yourself. Vladimir turns into a true pumping heart playstyle, constantly flowing around blood from and to you.

More appropriate to his theme/as a character, a more distinctive unique playstyle and most of all: Alot of depth added, laning as vlad is very fun but when it comes to teamfighting basically it's always the same: Pop R on as many targets you can, Q + E, W when you get some aggro, continue to Q + E, now you've either won or lost the fight. Quite dull.

-Warwick, the Blood Hunter.
Nitpick-champion, already is much of a hunting werewolf wich we like this alot, with this redesign he’ll truly hunt for blood now, even more than he already does with ‘Blood Scent’ only, also fitting an ability in there of a dashing 'speeding up for blood' mobility you would expect from a werewolf. Adds WAY more depth to him aswell.

-Wukong, the Monkey King.
Monkeys are @ssholes and troublemakers, redesigned to a truely agile monkey-playstyle.

-Ziggs, the Hexplosive Expert
Nit-pick champion, a bit more depth with his E/minefield while increasing the readability and logic of his ult.

-Zyra, the Rise of Thorns
RIOT PLS ! One of my favourites: Zyra turns to an organic 'living' & caring mage, she turns the Field of Justice to her own garden. Taking care of your plants and growing them untill you can release them and migrate them back somewhere else into the earth !
This is just ROFLWTFBBQ. Must have.

What did ItemsGuy try to do with Supports ?

The main things he wanted to do with supports is:

-Give way more influence/defined strength (Supports deserve to have this, the only reason they are seen as the 'lowest' impactfull characters/roles on their team because they are literally designed to be lame, Janna's current W and E for example, while her Q and R have HUGE impact on a game and really can define a good Janna player, with the Redesign Janna is all about displacement and speeding up her allies).

Blitzcrank currently is a good example of a support that has way more impact on a game, regardless of him being a good design or not, his presence in a game is way higher than let's say Soraka.

I specifically love the Morgana redesign, it's amazing and when I read it I want to play Support immediately.

-Remove "helplessness" (ie. you're **** without a teammate)
Like, when people are playing support, I still want the enemy team to be wary of them and not just go "oh dw its just a support" like if you walked up to Soraka currently.

-Make Supporting more fun and less of a sacrifice (While the Itemoverhaul made supporting alot more fun IMO, a few redesigns here could make them even more fun, more impactful, such as the Taric redesign, fitting up more to his character: Huge presence due to new E.

What did ItemsGuy do with unlogical abilities ?

If they are cool just not fitting the character he adds the ability to entire new champion, for example Graves's smokescreen fitting a 'Full Smoke Champion' better.
Or he'd switch abilities around: Nami's Passive more appropriate for Janna, current Fiora ult more appropriate for Master Yi and so forth.

If the abilities weren't that unique/outstandingly cool and didn't make sense he basically completely got rid of it: Karthus as a Deathsinger having his Q pop like throwing/exploding skittles: Removed entirely and his entire kit replaced with something that makes a unique defined playstyle appropriate to a 'Deathsinger' playstyle/character/theme.

Or Malphite Q: Moving magical rock that slows ??? His entire Q, W, E and passive replaced with a kit that make more sense and matches the CC he has now plus an entire new passive making Malphite more of an unstoppable constantly moving force of stone.

What did ItemsGuy do with other champions ?

Simply make them more appropriate to their theme, defining their playstyle according to this theme, increasing depth/skill cap of champions most of the time while trying to make the abilities sync well together for a very understandable and usable kit.

How do I leave appropriate feedback ? + Disclaimer: I hope that people realize that these Redesigns aren't nessecarily there to make the champion specefically more fun for YOU. I have struggled with this aswell as soon as I red all of ItemsGuy's redesigns, I know I'd probably like some champions less than I do now, this does not mean the current state of those champions are fine/better compared to the Redesign.

All of the characters/champions I like currently better than the Redesigns is insignificant: Their theme's could be more specific, their kits more unified, their character/over-all feel could be more specific, it's for the best that these champions get changes.

And yet again what of it ? I used to play Kennen alot yet I don't know if I'd like him less or more than ItemsGuy's redesign (eventhough his Redesign would make Kennen more readable and more specific), yet I'd enjoy something like Leblanc, Malphite, Morgana and Zyra WAY more !

This is really what I want to point out, when leaving feedback concerning those redesigns: Please tell us how the current kit fits the theme better than the Redesign would capture and don't use lore as an excuse, as we've dismantled that and have proven how this is a stupid approach - a 'piss-poor argument'.

Also, please take a look at other champions aswell, you might not like champion X as much as you would compared to their current state, but you might like champion Y, Z, A, B, C better than ever !

If you want to leave a suggestion to make a champion more unified/themetically better with fitting changes you are very welcome to do so ! For example: ItemsGuy left Janna's passive as the current passive, I pointed out that adding Nami's passive to Janna redesign would not only make her cooler (actually getting to speed up allies yourself is cool) but also makes sense: Speeding up your allies blowing the wind on their feet.

Original Champion Designs of ItemsGuy

This dude has made champions of his own aswell, obviously, see here the link to it (note: this includes some placeholders to be on there aswell, so those might not be 100% original):

http://lolchampdesigns.tumblr.com/


1234511 ... 24