@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Yoroshikuu

Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It depends on the situation and certainty - gradual changes are good for easing a character towards a more nerfed state, while drastic or faster nerfs are needed to solve more severe problems that are having a big impact. This is important because if a few champions are really out of line, they disallow use of any champions who compete with them for a slot on a team.

For Diana and Rengar, I'll be honest - I can't really comment in an informed manner here. The "appropriate force" approach is the overarching balance philosophy. A philosophy won't speak to accuracy (as that lies in execution details), but that's what we're trying to do at least.

Additionally, some of the Diana stuff might have been to fill in for the nerf we'd really like to do but is much tougher; slowing Q's missile speed. I think that would exemplify good Diana gameplay and create more counterplay.
You asked it wrong, the QUESTION is... Morello do you make champs OP upon release to boost initial sales? then do you drop a skin later for said "2-weeks-later-nerfed-champion" to scrape in the remains of any potential profits of a now less likely picked champion, whilst the popular roster rotates so RP spending is increased?
(look at history of patches)

Yet the majority of the community does not happen to observe this trend.

Conclusion: no only very little is actually about balancing the game itself, but maximising the profits whilst telling you lies.


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KetiaX

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Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoroshikuu View Post
You asked it wrong, the QUESTION is... Morello do you make champs OP upon release to boost initial sales? then do you drop a skin later for said "2-weeks-later-nerfed-champion" to scrape in the remains of any potential profits of a now less likely picked champion, whilst the popular roster rotates so RP spending is increased?
(look at history of patches)

Yet the majority of the community does not happen to observe this trend.

Conclusion: no only very little is actually about balancing the game itself, but maximising the profits whilst telling you lies.
History of patches?
Elise came out weak. Syndra came out weak. Zed came out weak. Rengar came out buggy (not weak, but the bugs make him weak). Kha'Zix came out weak.

I don't know what you're talking about.


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Noobgrenade

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoroshikuu View Post
You asked it wrong, the QUESTION is... Morello do you make champs OP upon release to boost initial sales? then do you drop a skin later for said "2-weeks-later-nerfed-champion" to scrape in the remains of any potential profits of a now less likely picked champion, whilst the popular roster rotates so RP spending is increased?
(look at history of patches)

Yet the majority of the community does not happen to observe this trend.

Conclusion: no only very little is actually about balancing the game itself, but maximising the profits whilst telling you lies.
Tinfoil hat time!


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JackAssCid

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Senior Member

12-18-2012

there is no philosophy behind riots nerfing procedures. there will never be balance in this game so long as new champions keep coming out.


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DementedLord

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Diana and rengar Status:

Excellent

Good

Decent

Fair

Poor

>[Riot,what are you doing STAHP]<


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Luci0us

Junior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It depends on the situation and certainty - gradual changes are good for easing a character towards a more nerfed state, while drastic or faster nerfs are needed to solve more severe problems that are having a big impact. This is important because if a few champions are really out of line, they disallow use of any champions who compete with them for a slot on a team.

For Diana and Rengar, I'll be honest - I can't really comment in an informed manner here. The "appropriate force" approach is the overarching balance philosophy. A philosophy won't speak to accuracy (as that lies in execution details), but that's what we're trying to do at least.

Additionally, some of the Diana stuff might have been to fill in for the nerf we'd really like to do but is much tougher; slowing Q's missile speed. I think that would exemplify good Diana gameplay and create more counterplay.
The main problem (and in my opinion, the only one) that all Diana fans have with Diana's nerf is that it severely reduced the effectiveness of her kit by making her Lunar Rush's range shorter than her Crescent Strike's. Her kit was intelligently made to have each ability synergize with each other, thats why she was an expertly designed champion. It only stands to reason that a champion with well designed abilities will be good in the game. And I'd let people say that Diana was "OP" when she first came out, but after her first nerf she kinda lost that "OP" title, she was at most "strong." And 1/3 of the champions are "strong" so I didn't see any reason for her most recent nerf, but I can understand if you want to give her another, as long as it works.

If you're going to nerf her, atleast still allow her to be viable in ranked games. Diana has many counters and weaknesses that are easily exploited, especially if she goes in the mid lane. (honestly, she can be so easily bullied if you know how she works) Her Lunar Rush being a longer distance than her Crescent Strike gave her that -needed- buff that allowed her to play in ranked and not get stomped on every game.

So please, give Diana her Lunar Rush back. It doesn't have to be its original range, but it honestly should be longer than her Crescent Strike's max range. Can you instead maybe nerf her early game ability damage and increase the mana costs of her abilities? It sounds like a fair trade =)


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KabiWarabi

Junior Member

12-18-2012

they tallking about diana -overnerfed, but they nerf rengar so bad..first new champ which nerfed alot , instead nerf jayce, remake karma, and do other things. like delete force of nature bloodrazor and other good stuff. no comments. + i dont like twitch remake so bad.


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666AlucarD666

Junior Member

12-18-2012

Diana with two nerf this and are increasingly more useless is not so op

Riot please think a bit on what they are doing, and please come back to Diana as was


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skumancer

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Junior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Right - it's an expectation difference here that I think causes a lot of conflict. I think Kog'Maw is a good example - he's pretty OK (but not omg must pick) in quite a few teams, but if you create a babysit-the-carry comp, he has a unique place in that team and really performs.

I really like this overall as Kog'Maw players can use him effectively, he has weaknesses, but also has a situation he is king in. It lets us use incomparables to balance.

We tend to have an easier time with this on AP and carries, but fighters are tough as we have a lot of baggage on fighters - and a numbr include less gameplay/counter-play overall, making us have less levers to pull. Slowing Diana's Q speed, for example, would give us another gameplay lever, and would allow for bigger high moments and bigger windows of vulnerability.
I don't know. Her R range nerf and the W shield not popping correctly now are devastating. Played a bunch of games and felt completely and utterly useless. Yes she needed a nerf, but I can't even catch up with my targets hit with Q anymore. It's simply impossible. How is an assassin supposed to be able to fight like this?

How am I going to be able to go against Vayne when she can just run away, then tumble towards me and shoot from afar, where I can't reach? It's absurd.


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skumancer

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Junior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
This

There is nothing worse that nerfing a champion out of viability, never to be seen again. I wish you guys would really do a better job of focusing on this.
Agreed. That's why you don't see Voli anymore. I feel useless with him, when before I used to have a lot of fun.