@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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iainB85

Senior Member

12-17-2012

No offense Morello, but increasingly so each time you come and post on these forums I can't help but think you are getting more and more out of touch with this game. Quite a troublesome assumption for the "Lead Designer" of this game.


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PrincessDerpy

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
You say you want all champs balanced and viable for a top pick---why ignore Nasus then?
Because Nasus fans refuse to let go of the infinite CS scaling on Q. They refuse. Whenever they're asked, they refuse.

So he's in the same slot Veigar is, forever doomed to not be reworked because they don't want to unleash him. They might give him a few number buffs here and there like they've given Veigar the odd tip of the hat, but visceral kit-changing ideas will never be implemented without doing something about his Q.


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Gribblez

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Is there a response on to why you guys hit Teemo so hard with the nerf stick Morello? As an very avid Teemo player I was greatly saddened by seeing him recieve a 25% dmg nerf to shrooms and then almost a BF Swords worth of damage on his late game Toxic Shot. I can understand giving his shrooms a nerf if they were still timer less, as in the long run it would even out, but with the timer thats a very low blow. Not to mention that his toxic shot needs something or else its just plain useless.


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Koechophe

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

I'm not sure if you're still reading this, but if you are, I would like to ask about the nerfs centered around making SURE supports can't go mid. This has happened to lulu, janna, soraka, and even nami BEFORE she was released. Now, there are support champions that can go mid quite well (such as lux) and I don't think she's unbalanced as either a mid or a support. Likewise, I can't remember people complaining about mid janna. There were cries of OP about those mid champions, but they didn't get nerfed, they got obliterated. Likewise, zilien doesn't work in the current meta as a bot lane champion very well. And despite requests to let leona proc her passive on nuetral minions (leona jungle, which would be AWESOME), nothing to that effect has ever happened.

I guess my question is this. Why are support champions nerfed out of viability anywhere else and/or not allowed to do other roles? Was mid janna conceptually broken? Was mid lulu conceptually broken?

I also have another question, if you are in fact reading this, and you would be so kind as to answer, if you can. Why are nerfed prioritized above buffs? I mean, it's okay for karma to be UP for like the past 9 months, it's okay for other champions such as poppy, trundle, sej, etc to be in bad places for extended periods of time.


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Draxarr

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Not really - I mean it's not optimal to have any, but if that's it...wow! That's better than I thought.

Also, I just looked into Nautilus. I think he's actually good - we did let him jungle with a level 1 W - try it!

Some of those are endemic of other problems, and should not be strong for the right reasons - Heimer being one of them. Anything that requires a rework is a victim of their gameplay being fundamentally flawed. This is less balance and more core design.
I would like to add Teemo to that list. A ranged champ who has the lowest range, health, and beginning damage and got overnerfed. I love Teemo, but now it's near impossible to play with him.

Thanks for swinging that bat.


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
20 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blar Venusaur View Post
Morello soaking BS like a champ. How many warmogs are you rocking right now?
Nah, this thread is actually really rational and good. I'm super happy about the conversations we're having here.


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
21 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEXenzyme View Post
I like chocolate milk.
What is your response Morello?
I like nachos. A lot.


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PrincessDerpy

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koechophe View Post
Was mid janna conceptually broken? Was mid lulu conceptually broken?
The concept of temporary health that can't be countered by anything is pretty damn broken if you get enough cash to scale it high.

Although frankly I think the only reason Mid Janna died off was because it was never a thing to begin with. Q and W are still great spells and E still has a really high ratio. She just doesn't bring the things out of mid that you want your mid AP caster to do (High AoE damage or target-ending amounts of burst)


As far as Lulu, yes, yes she was conceptually broken. The amount of temporary HP a Lulu that has money can pile onto someone at a moment's notice is completely out of this world and the prime contribution to the viability of a 4 protect 1 (otherwise known as Protect The Kog'maw) strategy.

Soraka got smashed because the payoff of "can't touch me" gameplay was too great. If you tried to get aggressive she smashed your face off and sustained off the damage she took. If you tried to get creative and took a bruiser mid, she ranked W and used those 1 and a half chain vests to laugh at your damage output.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Not really - I mean it's not optimal to have any, but if that's it...wow! That's better than I thought.

Also, I just looked into Nautilus. I think he's actually good - we did let him jungle with a level 1 W - try it!

Some of those are endemic of other problems, and should not be strong for the right reasons - Heimer being one of them. Anything that requires a rework is a victim of their gameplay being fundamentally flawed. This is less balance and more core design.

I think both yourself and Shedim combined have made a good point and I wonder what you might think about it... Shedim brings up Ezreal and Corki while you've brought up a conceptual change to Diana.

So Ezreal and Corki have rode the nerf/buff train. Right now Corki is a bit weak but Ezreal is still top dog. Why? Well why isn't Tristana? What is she missing?

The two areas Corki and Ezreal have over Tristana are poke and responsive escapes.

Poke is both characters ability to do damage from range. This assists their mid game as they can contribute while weak. Tristana on the otherhand has to commit to utilize a large portion of her kit and is forced to autoattack before she has the levels to fuel her passive properly. Poke, however, is mostly a numbers game. If Ezreal's level 6 burst from a safe distance was 25% of what it is it wouldn't be a factor.

Responsiveness is what I want to highlight. Adjusting Diana's Q by slowing it is conceptually a change to it's responsiveness. Make it less responsive so it's harder to use and less powerful. We've already seen the reverse in Cho'Gath's Q and how much a little extra responsiveness can strengthen a skill...

Well let's think about it. Tristana clearly has a very unresponsive jump. It's a dash really and one with a decent windup...which provides opponents counter play. Corki also has a dash but a far shorter wind up but his numbers where nerfed and he fell out of use....Ezreal however still has a blink instead of a dash. It's super responsive, hard to stop, and proper use can cancel things like Blitzcrank's Q....it basically has the inverse of the weaknesses's of Tristana's.

Could Ezreal's kit issue be that his blink is just baseline too powerful? That even with a cooldown hit and damage nerfs elsewhere that it can keep him strong where Corki fell short? That maybe what Ezreal needed was to keep his stronger damage numbers and have his blink's responsiveness reduced? (Longer cast time perhaps)

I suppose the simpler quandary is. What place in balance does responsiveness and ease of use play?


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Augratafier

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I like nachos. A lot.
What is your principle rationale for not saying bacon?