@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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JamesGatsby

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Hey morello do you have any idea what is going on with the jungle, to me seems like anyone who wants to build a spirit stone item is significantly weaker than a champion who goes wriggles or just selling machete? Or at least i dont feel like they impact the game as much as they used to or as much as wriggles junglers? (I.E. im sad that skarner feels weaker :[) also sorry for going off topic.


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Sporadic P0tato

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minishmaster View Post
Tank gragas starting in patch .106. His entire kit was nerfed except Q (which has minimal value to tank gragas), and every one of his core items was removed or nerfed, from components like HoG and Catalyst, to lategame items like Locket and Banshees, even to starting items like Fort pot.
You're talking about 106; from two years ago? I don't see Gragas being nerfed every week since two years ago. And there's no mention of gragas nerfs of any kind . .106. Source http://lol-patch.com/v1-0-0-106.html

And IIRC I seem to remember a Rioter discussing how they didn't much like Gragas as a tank, because he doesn't really "fit" into the role of what a tank is now. None of his skills really inherently lend him to being a good tank. Which would explain as to why Gragas has moved in the direction he has.

And all tanks have been nerfed by the item changes, not just tank Gragas.


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Byrnes

Senior Member

12-17-2012

@Morello,

So you almost touched on it, but then didn't...........a lot of times Diana's W is less than the range of her autoattack. Is that really meant to be like that? Do you know how frustrating that is jungling? Or is it in fact some sort of bug.


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Viktorious Alekt

Senior Member

12-17-2012

While we are at it, why was the bounty on deathstreak reduced? We did not have a chance to understand why, and I don't personnally like to gain less than 200 gold (180 something)when someone died just three times. What was the idea behind? Hell, I am even thinking of killing myself in lane to reset the bounty of my opponent.


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mr underhilI

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It depends on the situation and certainty - gradual changes are good for easing a character towards a more nerfed state, while drastic or faster nerfs are needed to solve more severe problems that are having a big impact. This is important because if a few champions are really out of line, they disallow use of any champions who compete with them for a slot on a team.

For Diana and Rengar, I'll be honest - I can't really comment in an informed manner here. The "appropriate force" approach is the overarching balance philosophy. A philosophy won't speak to accuracy (as that lies in execution details), but that's what we're trying to do at least.

Additionally, some of the Diana stuff might have been to fill in for the nerf we'd really like to do but is much tougher; slowing Q's missile speed. I think that would exemplify good Diana gameplay and create more counterplay.
morello have you ever been a politician? iam sure you make a good one, cause the answer you gived in this paragraph made the matter more complex and confusing.

which is what good politicians do .


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Cronovey

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alekt View Post
While we are at it, why was the bounty on deathstreak reduced? We did not have a chance to understand why, and I don't personnally like to gain less than 200 gold (180 something)when someone died just three times. What was the idea behind? Hell, I am even thinking of killing myself in lane to reset the bounty of my opponent.
This is more of a rubberband mechanic.

If you're doing really well, you won't get as much gold for bullying the weaker player. However, if that weaker player manages to kill you they get full bonus gold a bit earlier in an attempt to help them come back and even the playing field.

If you're bullying the other team (either by counterpick or being a better player) you shouldn't really be rewarded a buttload of gold for it, leaving them absolutely no hope at a comeback.


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UkyoSonoda

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alekt View Post
While we are at it, why was the bounty on deathstreak reduced? We did not have a chance to understand why, and I don't personnally like to gain less than 200 gold (180 something)when someone died just three times. What was the idea behind? Hell, I am even thinking of killing myself in lane to reset the bounty of my opponent.
I think that was done in an attempt to lessen snowballing when someone gets slightly ahead.


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
19 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by shedim View Post
One of your 25 FOTM picks is Ezreal. 1st choice AD carry in every major tournament eversince you released pulsefire. The only AD carry that competed with him was Corki, but since you nerfed him more than Ezreal, he basically vanished from the screen. Only Ezreal is left and usually picked as soon as possible. Does that look like variety to you?

You even managed to murder an unpopular, niche champion such as Urgot with your overzealous nerfs. Glad you're constantly using ~60 champions in tournaments, but it could easily be 80, if it wasn't for your occasional nerfbat rampages. You said you like champions to shine in certain situations. Where exactly does Urgot shine, now? What's his niche?

You're usually doing fine with balancing hence why people are shocked when you overnerf something every couple of months, or so.

Nerfbat killcount so far:
-Rammus
-Gangplank
-Heimerdinger
-Urgot
-Nautilus
-Tryndamere
-Rengar

Doesn't that make you a little bit sad, at least?
Not really - I mean it's not optimal to have any, but if that's it...wow! That's better than I thought.

Also, I just looked into Nautilus. I think he's actually good - we did let him jungle with a level 1 W - try it!

Some of those are endemic of other problems, and should not be strong for the right reasons - Heimer being one of them. Anything that requires a rework is a victim of their gameplay being fundamentally flawed. This is less balance and more core design.


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Viktorious Alekt

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
This is more of a rubberband mechanic.

If you're doing really well, you won't get as much gold for bullying the weaker player. However, if that weaker player manages to kill you they get full bonus gold a bit earlier in an attempt to help them come back and even the playing field.

If you're bullying the other team (either by counterpick or being a better player) you shouldn't really be rewarded a buttload of gold for it, leaving them absolutely no hope at a comeback.
Well it always leaves me cynic when I end up getting 100 gold for a kill, I was already whining in S2 about that change back from S1 that now it's nerfed again. =(


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zerodahero

Senior Member

12-17-2012

diana nerfs are not placeholders, they are nerfs to get her away from competitive play. Her/lee and rengar have been the most picked and banned in the last 2 tourneys especially in ipl5 http://leaguepedia.com/wiki/IGN_ProL...Picks_and_Bans. They know shes overnerfed just like they knew pre remake eve was nerfed so hard she was unplayable and they even admitted to that. Wost part is they usually don't fix unpopular champions like rammus after such nerfs atleast diana is porpular but who knows they nerfed ahri half way to hell also and left her there