@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
17 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbiter View Post
so melee carries??? i know they aint as weak as GD makes it look as (just like how they do with anything that isnt OP), but they bring some grade of unsatisfaction when you encounter they aint as effective (talking about efficience to carry a game) as they should when fed and the enemy is fed too, or when not fed and becoming useless lategame anyways.

or simply because they are not jax
A little of this - yes. It's a bigger issue than I can give the needed credence here in this thread. This is a team-level effort to deal with...it's really crunchy.


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metalaug

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalaug View Post
Tell the "balance guys" that the way they nerfed Diana was flat-out WRONG.

- Her orbs have a smaller detonation range than her autoattack. SHE NEEDS HER SHIELD as often as possible. If they do blow up, the area is so tiny it might as well be single-target,

- Her E range is so small, it invalidates its function as a "pull them back in" skill because she needs to be practically next to them for it to work anyway.

- She is no longer rewarded for skillfully predicting enemy movement and landing long-range Qs. The enemy simply needs to walk away or already be moving away. That is unacceptable. Champions that land their combo starter SHOULD BE REWARDED most of the time with their full combo. Seeing the enemy escape is INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING.

- I would gladly take tankiness nerfs over these dumbass range nerfs. You did not balance her. You made her UN-FUN to play. (and she was SO MUCH FUN before, this is depressing)
.


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Comrade281

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Lol rengar is doomed to be modified till the end of time :s


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ninjaipod

Senior Member

12-17-2012

riot nerf logic...

Attachment 576172

ಥ_ಥ


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
18 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sporadic P0tato View Post
So much hyperbole and wild claims in this post its ridiculous. Its understandable to want answers on certain things Riot does, but to just make up claims on how Riot approaches things and then demand they explain that is, well to be quite honest stupid, and not how you get answers from someone.

I can't think of any time Riot has "brutally violated with the nerfbat every week" ANY champion, ever. Example of this please. :Why don't you just take your time and tweak numbers by making small changes....." - that is literally exactly what Riot has done. Look at patch notes and see for yourself. The teemo nerfs everyone was screaming about for example. A .1 ap nerf ratio on his Q, and a damage nerf to his shrooms (which aren't used for exclusive damage anyway). Look at the nerfs for Rengar. These were all done over the length of time he's been in league (a period over FOUR MONTHS), and everyone has been screaming after every nerf that each one still wasn't enough. "....Does your marketing dep. not allow you commenting on this"? - you just being a dick.

People like you getting hysterical over every single adjustment are what creates these problems in the first place. Take down your strawmans and take a breather, then maybe try again and you might be able to find an answer. Peace.
This does create a "crying wolf" element if people overstate and overreact. It's useful to know how strongly players feel, but if we're trying to have a rational conversation about balance analysis, this type of stuff isn't useful - correct.

I do love to imagine a perfect world where we can all have calm rational conversations about issues that bug players. Hehe


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Well a rational calm world won't happen. This is a live game where people buy the unlocks to a champion and thus feel connected with them. People main or favor certain champions heavily and when the balance significantly shifts people WILL feel betrayed.

That said, do you see Diana and Rengar ever being in a healthy place or will they be doomed to a feast or famine lifestyle?


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shedim

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
But problems of OP champions would linger much longer and lessen variety more. I think (and I'm not sure, but my instinct here) is that I'd rather be wrong more often than let the game stagnate to actual 25 FOTM picks. We sit consistently at ~60 used in tournaments, which is pretty good. By getting better at detailed changes rapidly, we can increase this - I'd like to have our cake and eat it too here.
One of your 25 FOTM picks is Ezreal. 1st choice AD carry in every major tournament eversince you released pulsefire. The only AD carry that competed with him was Corki, but since you nerfed him more than Ezreal, he basically vanished from the screen. Only Ezreal is left and usually picked as soon as possible. Does that look like variety to you?

You even managed to murder an unpopular, niche champion such as Urgot with your overzealous nerfs. Glad you're constantly using ~60 champions in tournaments, but it could easily be 80, if it wasn't for your occasional nerfbat rampages. You said you like champions to shine in certain situations. Where exactly does Urgot shine, now? What's his niche?

You're usually doing fine with balancing hence why people are shocked when you overnerf something every couple of months, or so.

Nerfbat killcount so far:
-Rammus
-Gangplank
-Heimerdinger
-Urgot
-Nautilus
-Tryndamere
-Rengar

Doesn't that make you a little bit sad, at least?


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Cronovey

Senior Member

12-17-2012

It just seems like an impractical way of doing things. Not that I can think of a better way personally, but it seems like nerfing something into the ground while you wait to figure out how you really want to fix them is just a poor choice. It's like trying to stop your bleeding finger by cutting into your hand and saying, "Well, there's less blood going into the finger to bleed out!" instead of just fixing the original cut.

Diana can't even use her ultimate at the same range as her Q ability now, her orbs don't hit unless you're inside the target (she autoattacks from outside detonation range), and she still has almost non-existent mana costs which I've been complaining about for months. There just isn't any punishment for her missing a Q because of having such a small cost. Even after all these nerfs, she's just going to sit back, poke with her Q constantly because of the negligible mana cost, and then finish up her kill when the target gets low. These changes really didn't fix the core problem; low risk/high reward. Giving her a real cost on her Q (55/65/75/85/95) would force her to itemize a bit into regen like other mages, wouldn't really affect her jungle too badly, and would take away her "I spam Q every 5 seconds for fun" playstyle.


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PrincessDerpy

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Nautilus as a nerfbat kill?

So are we counting the jungle remake as the nerfbat now?


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shedim

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDerpy View Post
Nautilus as a nerfbat kill?

So are we counting the jungle remake as the nerfbat now?
Are you counting botgames?