@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
10 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
On rengar, the problem I feel is deeper than numbers -- right now, his kit just flat does too much and he's gonna take so many individual nerfs it'll suck to use any part of his kit on his own. I've already given up on Rengar because it just isn't fun anymore. Please ask live design/balance to consider this instead of just making him another lame duck succumbed to the perils of being a swiss army knife
We may agree here; he may have a fundamental flaw that prevents him from being satisfying and balanced. This concern is really salient to me.


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
11 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyzz View Post
Don't want to hi-jack thread here, but can you please address this issue that many, many players have been experiencing for weeks now? You said you'll look into it over 12 days ago and still no answer. I understand that you're busy but this is the most annoying thing i've ever come across in my year of playing LoL and I would at least like an answer which you've promised 12 days ago. Nothing is more frustrating when a consistently bumped thread is deliberately ignored.


http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2867243
I've sent this over to the engineering group - I can't provide an answer because this is near-rocket science to me. Sorry


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Bu Gao Xing

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Master Recruiter

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think, though, we disagree on what viable is. Is Naut unviable? Really? Or is he just not as good as other OP picks? Are teams not utilizing tanks in the jungle now?

Maybe he is weak, sure - but I think there are sleeper hits (and we see this quite a bit) and a certain amount of parroting that makes people assume that a champion is weak without it being weak. A lot of what the team does is thinking about this stuff.

Parroting that makes people assume?
IronStylus is behind all of this you say?


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imweasel09

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, that seems like that's untrue, looking at the numbers, it was just so far before, and when we toned it to the particle range, it feels small.

I wonder what the reaction would have been had it started at the "proper" range to begin with. It's tough because once players get used to something that's not right, it's hard to change without causing quite a bit of disruption.

I will have Statikk (who is doing our balance patch stuff these days) take a look at the numbers just to be sure, though.
I wanted to make sure you knew for certain that this is an issue,, and I hope you're still reading this. This is a picture of me Auto attacking the bigger golem at the very bottom camp, and the W orbs not going off because of the god awful new AA range.


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Rossingol

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's not hard, but, for example, you remove the little gameplay that Heimerdinger's E has already - that skill has almost 0 gameplay associated to it at all. In this case, that would buff the character, but then make us feel bad if he ever was popular. Buffs and nerfs, in my mind, are less important than gameplay patterns and play/counter-play between champions.

ASpd slows have one specific purpose - debuff ADC/some fighter damage. If you want a character to do that, then they should lower attack speed. If you don't, then it's superfluous.
You know, for a second I saw the words "Morello" and "Volibear" at the same time and I was really excited to see what you had to say about Volibear. Sadly, there was nothing there!

Do you have any words about our favorite bear? Like why he was cast aside for a Christmas skin, or why the massive topic about Volibear (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2182697) has been ignored by the Reds?

Is he really ignored because no one plays him or something?


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destructionX

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I've sent this over to the engineering group - I can't provide an answer because this is near-rocket science to me. Sorry
and i dont mean to be that guy also. but i had some questions/issues/thoughts in my thread about mordekasier and his place right now

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...0#post32545000


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EnderForHegemon

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Thanks for dropping in Morello, I learned a lot from your posts in this thread about how you see a lot of champions. It's too bad you dont have more hours in the day to get all of your concerns dealt with at once.


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
12 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ́lliad View Post
Oh geez Morello is still on his "I was right about Ezreal" high horse.

Seriously tho, viability boils down to "can he do the job?"

Naut is unviable because he cant reliable jungle until he has 2 points in his W. The guy cant even solo a rune camp reliably without help before he gets it. It has nothing to do with other OP champions. Nauts kit is still awesome, and if you babysit his first clear i think he is very viable.

But there is plenty of champions that can clear without help that arent top tier picks, why is it bad to add other "designed and listed as junglers" champions into the group.

The attack speed slow on Sej was not suggested for champions, but rather to give her the much needed sustain on her jungling.

When people whine about their favorite junglers, I like to think they are thinking about the PvE aspect, not PvP. Never heard anyone say "Sejuani and Nautilus can't gank"
This is true - though Sejuani needs more than just jungle speed. She's less weak than she is unsatisfying and failing to deliver on being a good tank. If you take a look, Meddler is looking at broader changes for this.

Nautilus is a better example of an easy fix, though; "is it that hard to increase Naut's Rank 1 W values?" Probably not


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lolCatbus

Senior Member

12-17-2012

So wait they gonna nerf the **** outta Diana and Rengar, then over the course of a few months slowly de-nerf them so everyone thinks they're fine and dandy again. Sort of makes sense on a psychological scale. Smart idea.


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ArmySquirrel

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, that seems like that's untrue, looking at the numbers, it was just so far before, and when we toned it to the particle range, it feels small.

I wonder what the reaction would have been had it started at the "proper" range to begin with. It's tough because once players get used to something that's not right, it's hard to change without causing quite a bit of disruption.

I will have Statikk (who is doing our balance patch stuff these days) take a look at the numbers just to be sure, though.
I feel like I would have mentioned it, but hindsight. It's quite noticeable when Diana is actively attacking a stationary target with W on and the orbs don't hit. It doesn't show up on everything because Diana's basic attack range is 150, while more things are 125, so they naturally tend to move closer and enter the orb's range of detonation, but creatures like Nautilus or the big golem in the golem camp can often end up just outside of detonation range even though both Diana and her target are actively auto-attacking each other in melee.

I mean it might be outside your immediate area of concern, but that's just what we've noticed. I appreciate that you'll ask Statikk to look at it, so hopefully this info will help the analysis a bit. I could get a video to showcase it even if needed.

That said... on the Q missile speed... does this mean we can expect more nerfs to Diana in the future?