@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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VictusOmnis

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's also important to realize that it's not our goal (nor statistically possible!) to have every champion in the top tier picks list. We just want options to be viable, and especially have them be situational or strategy-based.

Just what is your stance on Rengar? Just how do you decide on what nerfs and buffs are appropriate?

You nerfed his damage output so he can't be played as a heavy-hitting bruiser if he chooses to double q.

You nerfed his ultimate so now it's worse than twitches stealth which is NOT an ultimate.

You nerfed his sustain which makes him harder to be an offtank, jungler, and now extremely squishy in teamfights.

Just what is Rengar's role? You nerfed him across the board and now he seems like a huge mess with no direction. Yes, he is playable; but being playable is not even close to being balanced. He is a fighter who lacks the ability to fight or off-tank, and a jungler who lacks the sustain and damage. His ultimate is completely LAUGHABLE.

I don't mean to be rude, but I just do not understand why you are nerfing him across the board. He doesn't deserve this.


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Jaghatai

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It depends on the situation and certainty - gradual changes are good for easing a character towards a more nerfed state, while drastic or faster nerfs are needed to solve more severe problems that are having a big impact. This is important because if a few champions are really out of line, they disallow use of any champions who compete with them for a slot on a team.
Let's talk about Jayce -

I understand that Jayce was very good top-lane, but he was far from an auto-win. He's a very high skill cap champ and should therefore reward people who learn him with solid amounts of power.

However, after becoming a FotM champ - he was excessively nerfed to the point of being essentially unplayable.

Having played a lot of Jayce - I now struggle to find anything the champ can do now except for be a mildly tanky mobile speed gate - and that really sucks.
He has no identifiable play-style anymore.

The plain and simple is - he does not have enough of a support kit to be a tanky support. He doesn't have a tank kit to be a tank. He lacks any burst to fullfill the AD-Caster role he used to fill. He is out-ranged, out-gunned, and out-zoned by every other ranged AD in the game. And the nerf to the knock-back (let alone damage) on the hammer E has made him far less effective in top-lane which is rife with gap-closers. Building him straight up bruiser leaves him in a very awkward nebulous territory where a dozen champs do the job much better since his kit doesn't reward being bruisery either.

Respectfully, what was your goal with Jayce? How do you expect him to be played now?


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Soul Cloud

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Right - it's an expectation difference here that I think causes a lot of conflict. I think Kog'Maw is a good example - he's pretty OK (but not omg must pick) in quite a few teams, but if you create a babysit-the-carry comp, he has a unique place in that team and really performs.

I really like this overall as Kog'Maw players can use him effectively, he has weaknesses, but also has a situation he is king in. It lets us use incomparables to balance.

We tend to have an easier time with this on AP and carries, but fighters are tough as we have a lot of baggage on fighters - and a numbr include less gameplay/counter-play overall, making us have less levers to pull. Slowing Diana's Q speed, for example, would give us another gameplay lever, and would allow for bigger high moments and bigger windows of vulnerability.
You guys really took the flavor out of diana... which is quite sad.
Why make the R and Q have different range? if anything I would had lowered both and keep the same base stats, while nerfing the range from her E.
The W shield made me lost any sense of respect I had for the balancing team, seemed untested and quite frankly in bad taste.


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Majestic Fetus

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Right - it's an expectation difference here that I think causes a lot of conflict. I think Kog'Maw is a good example - he's pretty OK (but not omg must pick) in quite a few teams, but if you create a babysit-the-carry comp, he has a unique place in that team and really performs.

I really like this overall as Kog'Maw players can use him effectively, he has weaknesses, but also has a situation he is king in. It lets us use incomparables to balance.

We tend to have an easier time with this on AP and carries, but fighters are tough as we have a lot of baggage on fighters - and a numbr include less gameplay/counter-play overall, making us have less levers to pull. Slowing Diana's Q speed, for example, would give us another gameplay lever, and would allow for bigger high moments and bigger windows of vulnerability.
Fair enough

Having to walk past an enemy to proc my w shield is annoying but I can live with that
The range nerf on her ult is a different story... :/

Well since you're here a bunch of people will probs ask you this anyway so I'll get it out early:
Katarina and Darius, have they got any tweaks headed their way ?


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
4 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by imweasel09 View Post
So instead of waiting till you could slow Q's missile speed you make it so that she can't detonate her W in auto attack range? I'll be honest, that one makes me wonder if the balance changes were even tested. Its one thing to over nerf a character by making their damage or tankyness too low, its another when a skill flat out doesn't work on jungle monsters unless you run inside them on a character originally designed to be a jungler.
Well, that seems like that's untrue, looking at the numbers, it was just so far before, and when we toned it to the particle range, it feels small.

I wonder what the reaction would have been had it started at the "proper" range to begin with. It's tough because once players get used to something that's not right, it's hard to change without causing quite a bit of disruption.

I will have Statikk (who is doing our balance patch stuff these days) take a look at the numbers just to be sure, though.


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Vsin

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Can you at least revert the Diana W (Pale Cascade) change? If only the orb hitbox and not the explosion radius. That thing is having trouble hitting jungle creeps now.

EDIT: If you had launched it with the "proper" range, people would've been moaning incessantly from release until you guys finally decided to fix it.


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Titiln

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by imweasel09 View Post
So instead of waiting till you could slow Q's missile speed you make it so that she can't detonate her W in auto attack range? I'll be honest, that one makes me wonder if the balance changes were even tested. Its one thing to over nerf a character by making their damage or tankyness too low, its another when a skill flat out doesn't work on jungle monsters unless you run inside them on a character originally designed to be a jungler.
You have a pull.


Use it.
Be happy you have an offensive shield that also scales off of AP, and refreshes.


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KawaiiSenpaiDesu

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's also important to realize that it's not our goal (nor statistically possible!) to have every champion in the top tier picks list. We just want options to be viable, and especially have them be situational or strategy-based.
I might be unique in the fact that I consider every champion playable. I own every champion, and several skins for the "unviable masses"

But is very discouraging when a character or item is overnerfed, and I am saying that as someone who isn't speciallized.

When you guys nerfed Volibear AND Warmog's in the same patch for example.

You just recently gave rengar the same treatment. You guys speed nerfed him and Black Cleaver in the same patch.

Black Cleaver was in itself overnerfed. It should have been made unique and 1 of the passives values lowered, instead, both happened.

There is certain champions, that I love, that I know I don't even have options on. I play them because their kit is fun and interesting (Heimer, Volibear, Karma, Sejuani), not because they are the best champion.

And each time I do I think "Would it REALLY be a balance issue if Sejuani could just lower attack speed?" or "Is it really so hard to lower the mana cost/range of Micro Rockets and let it prioritize champions?"


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
5 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by VictusOmnis View Post
Just what is your stance on Rengar? Just how do you decide on what nerfs and buffs are appropriate?

You nerfed his damage output so he can't be played as a heavy-hitting bruiser if he chooses to double q.

You nerfed his ultimate so now it's worse than twitches stealth which is NOT an ultimate.

You nerfed his sustain which makes him harder to be an offtank, jungler, and now extremely squishy in teamfights.

Just what is Rengar's role? You nerfed him across the board and now he seems like a huge mess with no direction. Yes, he is playable; but being playable is not even close to being balanced. He is a fighter who lacks the ability to fight or off-tank, and a jungler who lacks the sustain and damage. His ultimate is completely LAUGHABLE.

I don't mean to be rude, but I just do not understand why you are nerfing him across the board. He doesn't deserve this.
Again, at this point I'm more out-of-touch with the details on this - I'll see what the guys think, though.


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imweasel09

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, that seems like that's untrue, looking at the numbers, it was just so far before, and when we toned it to the particle range, it feels small.

I wonder what the reaction would have been had it started at the "proper" range to begin with. It's tough because once players get used to something that's not right, it's hard to change without causing quite a bit of disruption.

I will have Statikk (who is doing our balance patch stuff these days) take a look at the numbers just to be sure, though.
Go play diana on live right now, her auto attack range is larger than the orb detonation range. I am not making this up, its all over the forums. You basically broke her W.