K Riot, seriously... About the lore.

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HerbaNoctis

Senior Member

12-15-2012

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2849563
Just posting this here because it is relevant. There's a ton of lore in the game that ties together, you just have to be looking for it. Just because Riot doesn't hand it to you on a platter doesn't mean it's not there. It's much better if you have to find it all.


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Celebi

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12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbaNoctis View Post
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2849563
Just posting this here because it is relevant. There's a ton of lore in the game that ties together, you just have to be looking for it. Just because Riot doesn't hand it to you on a platter doesn't mean it's not there. It's much better if you have to find it all.
Dude that's fanfic! Fan-made lore! I read enough of those! Even I can make lore, it's not too hard if you're a hardcore gamer who's come across his fair share of stories and game plots...

I want official lore, because there's no way for us to know what's next.


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Celebi

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12-16-2012

Bump


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Eserine

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celebi View Post
As long as Riot keeps ignoring us, like they have for the last 12 months since they announced the removal of lore, and since they've been remaking lore into worse versions, that will never happen.
There is a bizarre reoccurring sentiment from Riot employees one notices when one follows the DevTracker day-to-day:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
For future reference, try phrasing and creating threads that push the positive nature of the discussion. I don't fall into the habit of addressing negativity, but I've made an exception here.
not only do many Rioters constantly mention that they refuse to engage with any players who express disappointment, anger, or frustration with the game in GD, they also internalize this philosophy to their criticism of others within the company during the design cycle- instead of bringing up issues or problems with the implementation of champions, many choose to hold their tongue and just "lead by example" so that they don't risk alienating other Riot members or making enemies, which is largely ineffective in terms of helping the game quality since many Riot designers adopt incredibly poor practices of design that never get challenged by any colleague (and angry forum users are simply invisible to them)...

If one was a renowned engineer debating with construction workers whether to build a metropolitan bridge either of composite steel alloy or marshmallow fluff (as some people would find very tasty), one needs the ability to point out the mechanical shortcomings of trying to build something with marshmallow fluff! Likewise one needs to be able to point out bad things that are wrong with the game (like this thread) without being shut out and ignored for "negativity" when, as a result, the game quality will suffer the same issues as a giant candy bridge.

Here is my 'bridge discussion' about fixing the lore, and I am quite sure it will never be read or acknowledged by any Riot developer (which one commenter wrote in to suggest was not because my ideas were wrong, but because I was "being mean"):
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2813286

and likewise I had another thread in the lore forums going on for pages about lore mismanagement and all people wanted to talk about (while agreeing with me) was my demeanor or tone, which had nothing to do with the issue of the lore at all!
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2652320

I feel all of this ideologically stems from an extremely stupid overgeneralization of policy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I view this a bit differently:

We want players to be positive in League of Legends because they are positive people and want to be positive. No matter how hardcore our players are, they still love playing with hardcore positive players instead of hardcore toxic players.

We want positive players to have a place in League of Legends that doesn't exist anywhere else in online games. Here in League, positive players will often get surprises or perks on a consistent basis just for being who they are and making our community a better place.

We're not going to give exact details or rules so players can 'fake' it this holiday to try to get the surprise. We want players to learn that they should just be consistently positive in every game they play and if they do, cool things will happen in League.
Constant positivity to the degree of ignoring faults in teammates is an enormous benefit in instances where a very small group is working toward well-defined and simple goals as one does when playing LoL (collect gold, protect baron, and destroy the enemy nexus). This framework does not carry over into making the game itself, where the goals, with more designers and players in the hundreds and millions, are infinitely more subtle, numerous, and complex (avoid making all bad art and design decisions, don't mimic any previous characters or art from other recent media too much while still fitting designs into modern culture to the point of relevance, keep as many members of the playerbase as engaged with the game as possible through designs, etc.), this sort of challenge calls for forming and holding standards of design. A crazy teammate deciding to run AD Leona mid with a build rushing a rageblade might still work out for a team in the game (if she doesn't feed) because it throws off the enemy and is contained only to causal disadvantage of one player and lane, the lore team completely disassembling and throwing out the entire story-system built around the action of the LoL universe to substitute in really weak and poor writing is not self-contained to a single department or a half-hour match, it reflects upon the entire design corpus of the creators or a patch release, and no seasoned gamer or reader is intrigued or mystified by the horrific endproducts that result.

I feel that the recent actions of Ironstylus in regards to poor female character design and never being negative is another great example of this (although I don't mean to pick on him specifically as the only one who has this problem, he has merely been on the forums more actually talking to players, unlike most of the company who are often even worse).

I will call what players have been able to infer from posts through the end of season 2 up till now "The Sejuani Crisis", and it fits into a little timeline:

Part 1: IronStylus utilizes groupthink even though he knows many players hate how females are currently designed, because he doesn't believe in giving or listening to negative feedback
Part 2: During massive backlash to Nami being a s.lutfish, IronStylus criticizes the frequent forum poster chumbler for fatalistically portraying him as spineless in his unwillingness to stand up for what's right to any other designer (beyond those much younger, inexperienced, and new to the company like Gypsylord, who IronStylus pushed into making Vi a woman while capitalizing on Gypsylord's insecurity of position).
Part 3: IronStylus, and perhaps the new art director, declare a new age of better design patterns for woman characters, dumping all of the ideals once again only into projects IronStylus is directly working on, with little effect on the general release pattern since no one else will ever be made aware of the importance of such philosophies. Steel-Legion-Lux is born as the vanguard of a new set of incredibly badass, superior portrayals of females perhaps unlike anything previously seen throughout the entire problematic history of male-dominated game design.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...es-vs-MovieBob
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...9-Gender-Games
It is badly received because Lux already has weaker skins made on the same warlike theme, and players have grown bored with that, unable to understand the wider importance of the move.
Part 4: Finally IronStylus internally lays down concrete PRINCIPLES of his philosophy shaped by 'research", which doesn't include talking to angry players (much faster), presumably because his continued efforts were being ignored by the rest of the art teams who continued to make bad design decisions in terms of female champions. To communicate his goals and wider outlook about sexism in design to his more senior colleagues (which deserves a great deal of respect), he had to be negative and critical of what had been done in the past to some extent, so instead of providing a wide overview of design issues in terms of sexism against females by the art teams, he seems to have just chosen to really tear down the implementation of Sejuani as a bikini lady on a boar as an example of wider dysfunction so that he didn't have to attack anyone else and their sexist or exploitative art pattern. He begins a much trumpeted project to redo Sejuani like the new Lux skin, and the other artists don't make the connection to their designs and continue on as though nothing happened.
Part 5: Knockworst, splash artist for Sejuani, leaves the company (perhaps feeling unjustly singled-out), and players in the forums revolt against stripper-pole animations being taken away from Katarina after it had already been released on the PBE upon fears of censorship against human sexuality and a rushed, unequal substitution animation being put in, potentially fueling opposition to IronStylus' ideas within the company in allowing other artists to portray the wider public as having a high demand for misogyny and non-diversity in female form.

------------------------------------------------------

It should be noted I am only guessing at what is happening based on hints I have seen in threads from different Riot posters and players. I learned of Moviebob's work in the links above from a negative thread criticizing the community on the Katarina subject that no Riot member commented upon. If I were IronStylus (having actually paid attention to such threads) I would simply e-mail links to those two videos together with the phrase "something to keep in mind" in all future instances of problematic design patterns being adopted by the art teams to the extent that all other forms of design were being suppressed beneath the pressures of traditional patterns of abuse (or in other words, being critical), and reading threads such as this one I would also mention player concerns about the poor state of the lore and player dissatisfaction with the storytelling paradigm Riot is currently suffering from to the leaders of the company, but I am not IronStylus, and we the players will unfortunately have a long road ahead of us in regard to each of these issues.


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Technician Tim

Senior Member

12-16-2012

this is old, but bump


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Celebi

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12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcharles07 View Post
this is old, but bump
The fact its old is the reason it needs to be bumped. Does it really take 12 months to COME UP with a way to create lore? Not even creating lore, just thinking of a way to do it, takes 12 months... gg


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The Mind Taker

Junior Member

12-17-2012

Power bump. I get this is a free game, but that doesn't make people any less devoted to the story. Personally, I would LOVE to see another lore match like the Noxus vs Ionia one.


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Sylph

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Emissary of the League

12-17-2012

More items with Lore based tie ins would be awesome!


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HerbaNoctis

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celebi View Post
Dude that's fanfic! Fan-made lore! I read enough of those! Even I can make lore, it's not too hard if you're a hardcore gamer who's come across his fair share of stories and game plots...

I want official lore, because there's no way for us to know what's next.
There is. Basically everything but the Ryze **** actually makes sense from looking at the lore.


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Vongeo

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Lore bump