Solo Queue is Damned To die. Real Reform NOW!

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phatcat09

Senior Member

12-16-2012

TL;DR For you lazy folks lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
This is a wonderful statement. Riot has these abstract measures in place to encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior, and maybe they work kinda well for their limited purpose...but they don't actually provide LoL with a sense of community. And it's that feeling of shared responsibility and ownership that does the most to improve behavior. LoL's community tools are absolutely terrible, and the community is terrible as a result. LoL's client setup doesn't promote group play, so the premade queues wither while solo queue terrorizes the community.

Bottom-up reform, that's the key.
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In response too: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2909922
On Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...e_real_player/
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Preface: Yes it's long. Rome wasn't built in a day and the Civil Rights movement didn't happen in a week. Good ideas need to be fully spoken on, discussed, revised, updated, supported with examples, and simple messages need to be stated as a matter of fact even if the point isn't complex or easily inferred -- to reduce misunderstandings because if it were as simple as a paragraph then it wouldn't be an issue.

It is observed:

It's an endless Cycle and no one really wants to do anything about it.

1. Someone Rages
2. Someone antagonizes the Rager
3. Rager Rages harder
4. Team Effort in Antagonizing the Rager for Raging
5. Game devolves into swear match taking away peoples concentration.
6. Rager is banned - Usually coming back with even more disdain.

But take the same person put them into a premade 5 v 5 and they're jolly and suddenly non-toxic as bricks. Solo-queue hinders the consideration of the human aspect of reform. Leading to an inefficient and ultimately unsuccessful system that is actually making it harder for the positive members of the community.

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Note: Many of you are interpreting this essay to be an attempt to not hold people accountable you quite clearly aren't reading to the end of the document if you think this. Intentional ignorance is just as toxic to the Game as any feeder.
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Why can you observe this and be okay with it Lyte?

You're not stopping anything, but enabling everything and causing dissension in the player base that's only perpetuating a cycle of hate.

Criminal Justice -- A name which itself inherently dehumanizes and strips a person of their rights. (i.e just a criminal anyway -- who-cares mentality). Doesn't work.

Look at our Prison system, it's rampantly out of control.

Yes we catch the worst of us -- the ones who are so far deep past redemption that they have to be Seperated from society, but then the ones who aren't are also lumped into this group, adopt the "Well **** you back" mindset.

And No one thinks this is a problem.

This isn't about not banning people it's about why the hell we've deluded ourselves into thinknig that the best system is one modeled after one that's already proven to be a failure at reform

Tribbunal isn't a reformation system it's a Prison System

You don't reform people by taking them away from the community, the very thing you want them to want to be positively apart of, and tell them to start acting right and expect them to care because of the looming threat of Banning. This obviously isn't a deterrent from people raging. More importantly it wont make anyone see why they need to act more positively, why would anyone change if they don't truely feel the pull to change, and why do we think the threat of a punishment is enough when we ourselves bypass the rules online and in real life all the time without a second thought -- even with the threat of a ban. The current system doesn't work, wont work, and won't draw the Reform we as players deserve to see from the people who ruin our games. Simultaneously we are allowing for people who need to be removed from the system far fast than they are stay for extended periods of time.


Real reform starts with and inside the community

Why do we think it's a good idea to remove people from the community when the community is the reason we chose to act civil.

How can banning or imprisoning people with more negative people or with their own negative thoughts be seen as reforming when we want people to adopt positive community member mindsets?

^^^This makes as much sense as AD Veigar^^^

There Are individuals who need to be banned because they are too great a threat to the community.

The Prejudice, The intentionally mean, Trolls. People who ACTUALLY are ACTIVELY TRYING TO OFFEND US.

No the rangers or immature. <-- These people need Real reform NOT a prison sentence.

And that's not to say that their actions are oklay and should go without punishment. It means they need to be taught that LoL actually wants In Real Life behavior to be reflected in game.

Raging has been a near past-time of gaming for years, it's joked about in commercials. Why would we think that we can simply whisk away this mindset by banning people.

Banning someone who's raging is only going to make them rage harder.

Tribunal only gives a person 1 reprieve then it turns them into a criminal a negative "Toxic" person. There's a reason why those who make it past this one reprieve don't reform at a higher rate or even a moderate rate from what I've heard.

The 1 warning is is not and indication of reformation it's an indication that they like most people aren't prone to unappreciated behavior, but there are tons who are and it's these ones who we need to be most cautious with because if you don't help them properly then guess what.

They become and even greater negative force until they're permanently banned

RIOT Entertainment.

We need REAL reform. We deserve real reform and as it stands the harms of the current non-reforming "reformation"(sic) system are greater than the benefits of temporarily removing people from the community and just expecting them to act to our ideals.

I am proposing that this is best done by keeping them in the community and holding them accountable by their peers. And not by the faceless adjudicators of Tribunal.

Real genuine people won't want to re-offend their peers - their friends - their colleagues - their people! Real people capable of reform will care. Real people who WANT to stop raging and don't really rage that much will actually reform when they are met with the disappointment or shame from their peers.


We need to have a type -- any type of Faction/Guild/Team System. For the health of the community to create a greater sense of community and a greater sense of accountability and subsequent reform.

Let's place the power of banning into our Leaders hands. You can't get mad at someone who you've allowed to lead your group of peers. Incentivize the Guild by creating a system where Guilds are rewarded for having the positive players, perhaps tying into the honor system, penalize them for negative behavior (notice how I don't dehumanize a person, but condemn the action).

If a Guild leader decides they don't want them anymore they can be systematically removed by the guilds internal penal system.

The user will be forced to find another Guild and is marked with as either having been removed from the guild positively or with prejudice.

They can join another guild and if their behavior stays positive the blemish is removed and replaced with a mark of approval (by the guild leader). To proactively give that person who is truly disheartened the feeling that they are making positive steps and ultimately appreciative of their collective and the community at large.

However should they not chose to change they will be sent to the secondary system.

Tribunal

Not the Tribunal in its current form a Supreme punishment Tribunal one that operates to remove the worst because if you make it here you Really really really really are exemplifying negative behavior, and will either A.) take the reality check after being banned B.) You were an actual troll or past reasonable reform and need to be nixed from the system. Making a new account will be undesirable because they community will notice your lack of change and you'll very quickly make it to Tribunal again and again combined with the lack of acceptance because of your negative behavior (making sure the individual knows why) They'll either reform or leave. Making a new account wont be beneficial since it will die so quickly.

The current system isn't working.

Just because 74% of players don't' return to Tribunal after a warning doesn't mean it's any indication that the system is reforming people, it only means that most people don't play this game in a manner that emotionally invest them to it in such a way that they feel the need to be as impacted by it and respond negatively. (The whole riled up in competition Sports motiff)

If you're thinking to yourself:

"I don't want people who are mean to ever be in my game"

Then Wake-up and realize that the Tribunal in it's current form is nothing more than a pipe-dream Hauntingly guised as actual change.

Demand Community centered reform

Actually put the power in the hands of the player and monitor it for abuse.

My estimates based on statistics indicate to me a minimum of a 20% decrease in workload for Riot Support specialist will be achieved if we re-allocate the resources of reform to the players and allocate the resources for punishment to the Tribunal (lead by Riot Administration). Based on the % of players who do in end up in Tribunal 2 or more times (which is currently 26% ----- 5.1% are permanently banned and we know all these cases ARE handled by Riot Support.)

Please I'm tired of watching good people go bad.

Please for what it's worth think -- about what you're contributing too. It's not reform.

It's criminal punishment a system that is empirically not a positive reformation process.

Real Reform NOW!


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DG TheFeedski

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Senior Member

12-16-2012

I hear we are a lot friendlier in the Dominion community. Just sayin'... Doesn't seem like you're enjoying your SR games much, why not give Dominion a try?

And now I wait for the downvotes because I said Dominion.


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Rishal

Senior Member

12-16-2012

I liked the post up until guilds.

The problem with the tribunal is the lack of human interaction. You get banned by some random thousand 12 year olds and you get upset... so you contact customer support. Then, they e-mail you "Read the summoners code" and that's it.

You post on the forums about it and you get down voted "lol cool story bro QQ".

Of course it makes ragers worse.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Wow. That's really eye opening to hear it that way "The Dominion community".

Does dominion produce less negative behavior per capita?


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Nephilum

Senior Member

12-16-2012

#occupysoloqueue.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by R2shal View Post
I liked the post up until guilds.

The problem with the tribunal is the lack of human interaction. You get banned by some random thousand 12 year olds and you get upset... so you contact customer support. Then, they e-mail you "Read the summoners code" and that's it.

You post on the forums about it and you get down voted "lol cool story bro QQ".

Of course it makes ragers worse.
I think you should be a little mor eopen minded about teh guild thing. Reform happens when your humanity is challenged (i.e when you're made to feel ashamed or like a dick because you know you did wrong)

Don't expect this necessary feeling to exist in a system that isn't run by a group of immediate peers. Please reconsider it in some form as an option.


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Grand Treason

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DD TheFeedski View Post
I hear we are a lot friendlier in the Dominion community. Just sayin'... Doesn't seem like you're enjoying your SR games much, why not give Dominion a try?

And now I wait for the downvotes because I said Dominion.
turn in ur badge u FILTHY CASUAL


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phatcat09

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WovN View Post
turn in ur badge u FILTHY CASUAL
Did you mean Mudblood?


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NSefet

Junior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
You don't reform people by taking them away from the community, the very thing you want them to want to be positively apart of, and tell them to start acting right and expect them to care because of the looming threat of Banning. This obviously isn't a deterrent from people raging. More importantly it wont make anyone see why they need to act more positively, why would anyone change if they don't truely feel the pull to change, and why do we think the threat of a punishment is enough when we ourselves bypass the rules online and in real life all the time without a second thought -- even with the threat of a ban. The current system doesn't work, wont work, and won't draw the Reform we as players deserve to see from the people who ruin our games. Simultaneously we are allowing for people who need to be removed from the system far fast than they are stay for extended periods of time.
Quote:
74% of players warned by the Tribunal just once never end up there again.
Your unsupported claim seems to be pretty at odds with actual statistics.


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Darkvolcan

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Hey. Sorry for the late response, juggling 2 take-home final's while I lurk the forums and some other things haha.

Well put argument, it tackled some of the dehumanization issues that the tribunal currently offers.
These same issues offer an interesting parallel, however.

Are perhaps the tribunal judges just as spiteful as the ragers themselves?

If we take a look at tribunal judge behavior on the forum, they're usually condescending the banned player and glorifying the act of taking things away from them. It's almost as if they're as power hungry as ragers are, but simply use a different medium to do so.


Could the tribunal perhaps contribute to the further degradation of the community? Perhaps.


At the end of the day, LoL is an anonymous, F2P game, so toxic players will be inevitable. But what makes LoL and old RS so different?

Both games are F2P. Old RS somehow maintained a unified community throughout it's F2P servers whereas the average LoL player is more than happy to step all over their team mates for their own personal desires.

Could the game itself be inherently toxic-provoking? Or is there an underlying factor that we're not seeing?


I agree that the tribunal contributes to the toxicity and doesn't attack it where it should. But the question that this would of course raise is, how can the issue actually be controlled?

OP suggested a guild system that would make people feel welcome or shun, but what about the ones who don't care?
One peek at the PvP community on WoW which is similarly as toxic (or at least, used to be back when I played) would show that those players also didn't care about their guild. If anything, they used one another and nothing more.
I remember sitting in vent and hearing our guild leader curse out everyone who did something wrong, and went on a verbal rampage against our FC. The guild system evidently didn't do much to unify us.


So what exactly can be done? What's the true underlying issue behind all this? I think this is the question we should try to tackle next, for the solution to everything will be in that answer.


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