@Riot: "Badass" female design

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lemonchief

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhadamant View Post
I sort of disagree with the basic assumption in the thread, which is that one needs to be muscular to be 'badass'.

Maybe it's a differing definition of 'badass'. I don't know. As far as a stylised character in a game goes, she certainly doesn't look like she lacks ways to clobber seven bells out of someone.

Quickedit: Also totally holding out for 'Full Metal Vi' skin.
That isn't the assumption of the thread. The assumption of the thread is that Vi is the same character we've seen for fifty characters. And it's not even an assumption, it's an inarguable fact.

I suggested that she should be more muscular, but there are plenty of bad ass women who aren't muscular. There are some bad ass women who are old, not particularly attractive or necessarily fit in real life. A woman can be bad ass for all sorts of different reasons--Vi just happens to assault people with her fists so she should have some kind of muscles on her, as that kind of activity would naturally lead a person to either be predisposed to being in that line of work or develop some muscles.


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Seethman

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenmar View Post
I'm sorry but your rules of reality need not apply to a video game that in itself is fantasy and not reality. Also, the genre of the game is fantasy where the concept of what is considered "bad ass" in reality need not apply to the fantasy.

Sorry but your pre-conceived notion of what defines or satisfies your concept of bad ass need not apply. The sooner you stop applying the mundane rules of reality to video games the sooner you can actually enjoy video games the same way you enjoy books, and other forms of media.

Also the one trend that I notice is that with "female champion design" is something that is itself a contradiction. The people demanding said champion want someone powerful but completely rooted in reality to which simply saps any sort of character or fortitude to actually be able to handle situations that are simply beyond any normal person regardless of their mental or physical prowess.

You make a muscular female champ, people complain that she is too butch. You make a thin champ, people complain that she is incapable of what she can do. You make an intelligent champ, people complain that she lacks the actual power.

Honestly if anything the one thing I notice when you try and have this "female champion design" it simply saps any sort of imagination and disbelief from any game designer regardless of gender because of all the contradictions and focus on the negative instead of the positive and what would make people want to play that character.

In short there really is only ONE character I have seen that has been created that has really matched ALL the demands of what the players here in a female champion. That character is BELLA from the Twilight series. I don't know about you, but I really don't want THAT as a video game character.
I would like to at least find out about the muscular female champ. We don't really ever get the chance, though, because we are consistently given the same body.
I'm gonna go play Blitz now, where none of this makes a difference.


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Destroyer Shad

Junior Member

12-15-2012

i personally think vi needs to be buffed alot more, since she is gonna be a dps melee/ tank


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

12-15-2012
1 of 10 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovely Pants View Post
Well, this thread is unlikely to get a Riot response given its caustic nature, but hopefully they are still watching this kind of argument for the kernels of good feedback after the first wave of accolades they were given when most everyone in any camp agreed that Vi's base model and attitude were cool.

...
I'll respond, but I agree with the fact that the thread's beginning doesn't have the most positive tone. I normally don't respond to negativity, but I have some thoughts here. Most of the other comments are fairly positive, so I'll address you rather than the original points and some others I've seen. Thanks for being calm and positive bee tee dubs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhadamant View Post
I sort of disagree with the basic assumption in the thread, which is that one needs to be muscular to be 'badass'.

Maybe it's a differing definition of 'badass'. I don't know. As far as a stylised character in a game goes, she certainly doesn't look like she lacks ways to clobber seven bells out of someone.

Quickedit: Also totally holding out for 'Full Metal Vi' skin.
This is an interesting point.

Whilst a muscular lady would probably be default badass, not all badass ladies have to be muscular. With the case of Vi, yes, as I've said, we could've added some bulk, but that's such a subtle change on the geometry level that it's mostly unnoticeable unless you're at model viewer level, and, as you might know from playing the game, we aren't. We're not FPS, we're RTS. The way that Vi's gauntlets are positioned isn't really helped in any way by bulking her up. I like the Calhoon reference from Wreck it Ralph, I think she's an awesome design, and made me think a lot of Vi when I saw the movie, in a good way. However, maybe it's just me, but Vi's youth I feel takes precedence over bulk, and I don't think the youth aspect is served too well by excessive bulk. Thick/thin contrast is what's used here. I think she's fine in that regard. Again, for our camera, for our game, such a subtle geo tweak wouldn't be noticeable and we'd be doing such an adjustment for our own artistic satisfaction rather than the ultimate goal, game readability and clarity for our camera.

I've also said this, more musculature and bulked up anatomy would better suited for a character that's really going to show it off, rather than a character who's primary reads obstruct any added anatomy we might want to add. Better to spend the time and utilize the real estate on a character where you're actually going to notice.. Sejuani would be a good example.

We've learned an interesting tidbit as we've made over a hundred champions. There are different levels of stylization that fit for different character tiers. Female stylization tends to be in the zone where style, anatomy, etc can be pushed. That doesn't mean we limit body-types, we admittedly need more, but if you historically look at a lot of champions, the females are served by more conventional "realistic" body types, the males less so, the humanoids even less, the yordles are super stylized, and the creatures are crazy-go-nuts. If we were to break down female body stylization it might go something like: Athletic female, standard female, voluptuous female, heroic female, brutish female. Examples: Akali, Diana, Miss Fortune, Leona, ______. You might notice the blank. We really don't have the latter, or anything really in it's realm. We have male hulks like Mundo or Scion, but nothing analogous in our females. If I were to throw Vi into one of those areas it'd probably be somewhere between athletic and standard, on the young side. Calhoon would probably be heroic. Mind you that's a very, very, generalized breakdown.

All that said, badass ladies are not always going to be muscular. If they're a harrier of sorts they'll be athletic. If they're tanky they might be more heroic. There was no real intent to stick Vi into a particular slot, she just evolved into her space, that's usually how good character design goes. You don't try to design for the type, you design and the type evolves. Vi could be pushed and pulled here and there but that's splitting hairs I feel. If we make a barbaric Monster Hunter type female then by all means we probably want something closer to brutish and more heavilly stylized. Certain tropes have been tagged by the team which would be ripe for this treatment. Depending on role however, the standard may prevail and clothing, weapon, and sources of power might swap.

Make no mistake, I've had my hand in clawing for us to make more distinct body types, but even when I work on something, as I recently did, it was a better choice to show agility rather than raw muscle because of the role. If we design by role and by what's best for the character, we achieve variety so long as we imagine broadly inside of that role. That's where I feel we should focus our efforts. Not for making an effort to find space for something particular, but for letting a character's development dictate our visual problem solving. Believe me, I've had an eagle's eye on opportunities where we can vary body types, though I haven't as of yet personally worked on anything to ground-breaking.

For future reference, try phrasing and creating threads that push the positive nature of the discussion. I don't fall into the habit of addressing negativity, but I've made an exception here.


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Laboufe

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Iron Stylus' posts are always so amazingly well thought out. I love reading them and couldn't agree more with what he said. Iron Stylus, keep up the awesome =)


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XartaX

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Senior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I'll respond, but I agree with the fact that the thread's beginning doesn't have the most positive tone. I normally don't respond to negativity, but I have some thoughts here. Most of the other comments are fairly positive, so I'll address you rather than the original points and some others I've seen. Thanks for being calm and positive bee tee dubs.



This is an interesting point.

Whilst a muscular lady would probably be default badass, not all badass ladies have to be muscular. With the case of Vi, yes, as I've said, we could've added some bulk, but that's such a subtle change on the geometry level that it's mostly unnoticeable unless you're at model viewer level, and, as you might know from playing the game, we aren't. We're not FPS, we're RTS. The way that Vi's gauntlets are positioned isn't really helped in any way by bulking her up. I like the Calhoon reference from Wreck it Ralph, I think she's an awesome design, and made me think a lot of Vi when I saw the movie, in a good way. However, maybe it's just me, but Vi's youth I feel takes precedence over bulk, and I don't think the youth aspect is served too well by excessive bulk. Thick/thin contrast is what's used here. I think she's fine in that regard. Again, for our camera, for our game, such a subtle geo tweak wouldn't be noticeable and we'd be doing such an adjustment for our own artistic satisfaction rather than the ultimate goal, game readability and clarity for our camera.

I've also said this, more musculature and bulked up anatomy would better suited for a character that's really going to show it off, rather than a character who's primary reads obstruct any added anatomy we might want to add. Better to spend the time and utilize the real estate on a character where you're actually going to notice.. Sejuani would be a good example.

We've learned an interesting tidbit as we've made over a hundred champions. There are different levels of stylization that fit for different character tiers. Female stylization tends to be in the zone where style, anatomy, etc can be pushed. That doesn't mean we limit body-types, we admittedly need more, but if you historically look at a lot of champions, the females are served by more conventional "realistic" body types, the males less so, the humanoids even less, the yordles are super stylized, and the creatures are crazy-go-nuts. If we were to break down female body stylization it might go something like: Athletic female, standard female, voluptuous female, heroic female, brutish female. Examples: Akali, Diana, Miss Fortune, Leona, ______. You might notice the blank. We really don't have the latter, or anything really in it's realm. We have male hulks like Mundo or Scion, but nothing analogous in our females. If I were to throw Vi into one of those areas it'd probably be somewhere between athletic and standard, on the young side. Calhoon would probably be heroic. Mind you that's a very, very, generalized breakdown.

All that said, badass ladies are not always going to be muscular. If they're a harrier of sorts they'll be athletic. If they're tanky they might be more heroic. There was no real intent to stick Vi into a particular slot, she just evolved into her space, that's usually how good character design goes. You don't try to design for the type, you design and the type evolves. Vi could be pushed and pulled here and there but that's splitting hairs I feel. If we make a barbaric Monster Hunter type female then by all means we probably want something closer to brutish and more heavilly stylized. Certain tropes have been tagged by the team which would be ripe for this treatment. Depending on role however, the standard may prevail and clothing, weapon, and sources of power might swap.

Make no mistake, I've had my hand in clawing for us to make more distinct body types, but even when I work on something, as I recently did, it was a better choice to show agility rather than raw muscle because of the role. If we design by role and by what's best for the character, we achieve variety so long as we imagine broadly inside of that role. That's where I feel we should focus our efforts. Not for making an effort to find space for something particular, but for letting a character's development dictate our visual problem solving. Believe me, I've had an eagle's eye on opportunities where we can vary body types, though I haven't as of yet personally worked on anything to ground-breaking.

For future reference, try phrasing and creating threads that push the positive nature of the discussion. I don't fall into the habit of addressing negativity, but I've made an exception here.

Scion


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Dryad Soraka

Senior Member

12-15-2012

She is badass not fatass.


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DT777

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Sqawk
I feel like Vi missed the mark: Her voice is way too polished. IIRC, there's a total lack of slang . She's got very generic cowboy cop lines. And she sounds like she was raised in upper-to-middle class.

I'm curious to know what you think of that assessment.


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Best Philosopher

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonchief View Post
I realize that I will receive a great deal of backlash from the neckbeard/mouth breathing community that primarily frequents GD for this, but I didn't realize that your idea of "badass" was a barbie doll, cookie cutter female body with a bad ass head on it.

Before I get too far into this post, I should point out that I am referring specifically to Vi (although, this has been an ongoing problem that you (riot) has claimed to be addressing), and how she looks exactly like every other female champion ever released, save for the fact that she has her name tattooed on her face and p!nk hair.

Let me start by pointing out all of the flaws that are inherent in this poorly designed 'badass' female champion. I don't know if you've really noticed (I mean, you designed her, you probably should have), but she is wearing enormous metal power gauntlets. This wouldn't normally be a problem, except for the fact that the aforementioned neckbeards and mouth breathers who are now raging at this post have more muscular arms than Vi, and all they do with their arms is play league of legends, as well as performing one other activity that doesn't require a great deal of strength--probably while looking at the varied and well thought out female champions that you release daily.

I would like to move on from her arms now, that are featured on every female champion that you've ever released, and point out that she is wearing a corset, which is smashing her intestines, stomach, and lungs into her waist, which is similar to the waist that Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen were born with. This wouldn't really be a problem either, except for the fact that Vi is describe as someone who enjoys walking, and not having the upper half of her body collapsing in on itself if she stands too quickly. I was under the impression that Vi was a warrior of sorts, or perhaps even an enforcer, who described her enemies as just another wall to be punched through. I was such a fool.

Moving on from her grapefruit, I mean waist, I would like to move on to the design point that confused me the most. While it is not necessarily a flaw, it is moderately confusing as to why you would make Vi's ass cheeks visible from the front of her splash art. I mean, I guess I can see what you were going for, because that is one bad ass.

If anyone has read this far, which would be genuinely surprising, they might think I am a feminazi, homosexual, or white knight, but I would like to point out that, as a heterosexual male, I, too, enjoy looking at women. In fact, I actually prefer athletic, slimmer women to curvacious voluptuous women. But holy ****, can we please get something other than a thinner Marilyn Monroe with accessory x, hair y, please? How could you, Riot, fail so badly in your character design that a fish with MAMMARIES, a spider, and a power-glove wearing badass from Piltover are the exact same character with marginally different faces, hair, and weapons, aesthetically?

As a company, you've made a lot of really strange decisions lately. I was a happily paying customer for quite a while, and I'm sure you can see that I've spent a great deal of money on the game. But the fact that you can't seem to actually deliver on your promises (diversifying female champion design being just one of many) is making me not only discouraged, but less willing to actually spend money on your game.



TL;DR section: Your badass female wears a corset, rather than armor, has the same arms found on literally every other female you have ever designed, has a thinner waist and larger hips than any living human being, and, in general, lacks any quality other than her face, hair, and weapon that even differentiate her or make her more badass than any other female champion you have ever released. Please fire whoever thinks copy/paste is cool.

Edit: I would also like to point out that I do not actually believe that this is necessarily the fault of the artist, who did an excellent job on her face/hair and arguably clothing (thematically speaking).
By the nature of power gauntlets/suits etc and anything related usually enhance current strength, huge arms are not needed. besides, women do not have naturally large muscular arms? usually leaner muscle.


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Chabi

Senior Member

12-15-2012

I really like the design on this champ. she looks like she can actually fight.