All forms of Non-Mana Resources flawed?

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The McSmashy

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0TsarBomb0 View Post
How does not having to be limited by a resource "hindering"?

And no, it doesn't limit item diversity, quite the opposite. Mana-hungry champions are forced into itemizing to fix their resource problem: that's why Athene's is core on many casters. Mana-free casters are free to rush Rabadon's, or Gunblade, or Rylai's, or whatever.
The other thing is that buying mana/mana regen on a champion that doesn't use mana isn't worse than on a mana-using champion, it's just not as needed. You might be buying Athenes for its CDR and Magic Resist all in one, or Iceborn Gauntlet for its AoE slow fields and armor, while other champions pick that item because of its mana-based stats.

Do you think Katarina would be LESS constrained if she had mana to work with? Or would she suddenly be forced into Athenes to stay relevant? If Kat had mana, does that make Athenes better on her, or more required?


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0TsarBomb0 View Post
What you just said is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the definition of hindering a champion. You don't have the fear of not being able to use it, nothing is controlling the abilities except the abilities, you can't be baited into wasting them.
You're taking this too far in one direction. If you have to "fear" not being able to use it, that's bad. But you shouldn't have to forget about having a resource either.


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plasmatorture

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Senior Member

12-13-2012

I think most forms of rnon-mana are aptly done. The only champion I think it's definitely broken on is Katarina (she has no drawbacks for being melee due to DR and huge mobility, and she has no drawbacks for being manaless. she would simply be fixed if she used mana) and I think sligthtly with Akali (R should cost energy because resets get abusive on it). I could also see an argument for Shyv to use mana.


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Gløry

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Why is riven's ult CD 65/55/45?


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The McSmashy View Post
The other thing is that buying mana/mana regen on a champion that doesn't use mana isn't worse than on a mana-using champion, it's just not as needed. You might be buying Athenes for its CDR and Magic Resist all in one, or Iceborn Gauntlet for its AoE slow fields and armor, while other champions pick that item because of its mana-based stats.

Do you think Katarina would be LESS constrained if she had mana to work with? Or would she suddenly be forced into Athenes to stay relevant? If Kat had mana, does that make Athenes better on her, or more required?
No one should be "forced". It just means that you are more in favor of having your abilities do more damage through more precise use of said mana ability. If you want to use your abilities more often but with less bang for your buck, then you can get some mana.

And not all champions have to opererate exactly on those principals, but loosely based on them to where it might matter a bit less. That's why there's energy and such. But the problem with that is that it completely eliminates an entire element of the game.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-13-2012
2 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
The problem with non mana related champions is that they have no strategic use of resource for the short term, which happens way more than the long term. And even in the long term mana is more important depending on the champions kit. You could do everything you're doing with energy, health costs with mana.
No, you couldn't. Energy is a hard gate for characters that they cannot overcome for the most part. Because you cannot itemize the maximum cap away - you gate a character's maximum potential fully.

Akali, for example, uses Energy quite well - Akali's snowball case is hard gated because she cannot circumvent her upper-bound limits through mana itemization or mana regeneration. She is forced to fully commit to her Q-target in order to snowball to another target.

Vlad's 'W' is another skill whose gameplay would be far less manageable if you choose to use Mana Costs, for similar reasons, as it is a hard floor rather than a hard cap for his opponent.

Quote:
When you remove mana from the equation you are completely removing the players skill of having to determine how to engage their abilities and resource to the many confrontations that happen throughout the entire game.
Yes, you do remove the resource management part of the equation. The onus is on the ability in question to replace that management with something of equal concern. For example, many energy skillshots are far shorter range than their compatriots. Why? Because in exchange for not being resource constrained, these skillshots have a far higher chance to fail.

Ideally, you shift the difficulty from one aspect of the skill into another. You can make a skill with a 5% chance to succeed *if* it has no cost, for example - and it would still feel pretty good.

Quote:
It's solely because mana can "run out". You can't wait for it. So you have to be careful.
By making a skill capped or gated by mana, you force players to optimize timing and hard commits - rather than a sustained encounter or probing the opponent. In effect, you remove the ability to 'feint' or 'probe' in exchange for pushing the entirety of the skill into finding the exact right moment.

A great example of this is Garen's Q - Garen's Q can be used for offensive feints and offensive probes because it has only opportunity cost. Pantheon's 'W' on the other hand forces the player to find the specific correct timing because it has a permanent cost. Both of these situations have skill involved to use - but you shift around the emphasis of 'perfect timing window' or 'bluff/probe'.

Again, I'm not saying we're using every resource perfectly in every instance. I'm merely saying that non-mana resources can be leveraged to produce superior gameplay than only using mana.

Quote:
And not all champions have to opererate exactly on those principals, but loosely based on them to where it might matter a bit less. That's why there's energy and such. But the problem with that is that it completely eliminates an entire element of the game.
Eliminating an entire element of the game isn't a problem for the most part. Melee / Ranged dichotomy for example, eliminates kiting from a melee skillset for the most part. Is it a problem? Not particularly. When done well, it simply means that Melee has a different set of problems to deal with.

Similarly for different resource systems, when done well, the key is replacing one form of management with a different set of challenges.


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Dimwitt

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Senior Member

12-13-2012

So plans to fix said problem in non-mana based itemization ?


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1st HanarSpectre

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaarrjj View Post
And not all champions have to opererate exactly on those principals, but loosely based on them to where it might matter a bit less. That's why there's energy and such. But the problem with that is that it completely eliminates an entire element of the game.
Not really, it just displaces when you need to manage your resource.
Take energy vs mana.
Early on mana user have to gauge their spell use as to not run out of mana, but late game it's very little concerns, just spam your spell in a fight everytime they are off CD.
Early on energy user can pretty much spam away endlessly, but late game in teamfight, you can't use your spell every time they are off CD since you do not have enough energy for it.


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Prince Kassad

Senior Member

12-13-2012

I don't get it. What does Talon have that needs to be gated by mana that Katarina doesn't have? Her dash is more spamable and a free escape, and her poke is even pokier. She also wave clears better.


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Krynul

Senior Member

12-13-2012

god forbid there be a downside to having no resources...


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