All forms of Non-Mana Resources flawed?

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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Doesn't it limit item diversity? If I Pick Zed, I'm pretty much locked out of a lot of builds because I don't have mana. Same goes for katarina.

Do you think having champions cost no resource actually gives you a different playstyle as opposed to if they did have mana, but just had low ability costs? Or have something in their kit where if they combo things they'd gain a lot of it back?

Isn't having no mana actually more limiting in the broader sense of the game because it forces your champion to play more binary due to the lack of a defining resource? You lose an entire strategic element of the game's early and somtimes mid game (depending how you build, another plus to mana) when you take mana out of the equation. Your builds become predictable. All you have to focus on is using your abilities at the right time. Meanwhile other champions have to be aware of their mana AND making sure their abilities are used at the right time.

Katarina could benefit by having mana because her abilities would become much more powerful as a result, but you couldn't just spam them whenever you wanted to because you would run out of mana. Her passive would become utterly useless because she has no mana to spend because she wasted it all before hand. Or didn't itemize around it if she needed to spam it for whatever reason.

Mana is a resource that governs ability. Not the champions ability, but the players ability to manage it and exploit not only his resource, but his enemies.

Energy, Health Costs, No Resource, these things hinder the game. The playstyle of the champion can be preserved, and even accented when they go over to a mana resource.

Rage, I'm not sure about. I don't have enough experience with it to know if it's good or bad. But I've played all the others to know how hazardous the effects have been to the game.

That's my opinion anyway.


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ScorchXBanister

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Senior Member

12-13-2012

I think I missed the point, so I'll just watch. Deleting my post would make the thread seem wonkety since he quoted me.


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Heliostorm

Senior Member

12-13-2012

How does not having to be limited by a resource "hindering"?

And no, it doesn't limit item diversity, quite the opposite. Mana-hungry champions are forced into itemizing to fix their resource problem: that's why Athene's is core on many casters. Mana-free casters are free to rush Rabadon's, or Gunblade, or Rylai's, or whatever.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorchXBanister View Post
There are so many items you really shouldn't be locked into getting mana/mana regen items. What's Katarina gonna do with Athene's or Ice Shard?

I actually like weaker abilities for no resource. Vladimir, Katarina, Riven do not suffer from their inability to build mana or mana regen items, and wouldn't gain much from being able to. Hell, Riven would be able to build Frozen Heart without qualms, that's pretty much it.
Try not to get too distracted with my example. It is purely just an example to try and illustrate my point.


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Averforge

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Senior Member

12-13-2012

i think of it as "how much am i paying for a stat i wont need" if its more then 1/4 of the cost of the item then i dont get it


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-13-2012
1 of 6 Riot Posts

A very rough breakdown of resources:

Mana is a limiter in lane but ceases to become a limiter late game. Mana is best on characters on most characters simply due to the fact that it is widely known and intuitive. Mana gameplay is best used to limit their one-minute case - but do not hinder their short-term case. Mana is best used on very highly accurate abilites that you need to gate through their frequency over time.

Energy is a non-limiter in lane but a drastic limiter in team fights. You use energy if you want to gate the maximum chaining potential of an ability - but not affect their overall usage on a time basis. Heat is very similar to Energy in this paradigm.

Fury is a non-limiter in lane and a limiter in team fights. Since Fury is defined very different on a kit by kit basis - it is the kit that serves to define how well Fury is used. Fury is probably best used when a character wants to fully commit to a fight and fully disengage from a fight.

Health Costs
are a non-limiter in lane and a non-limiter in team fights. However, Health Costs mostly punish improper usage of abilities but not hinder them. Health Costs can also be particularly good on abilities that you always want constrained in some fashion by making it have a relevant cost in any situation.

Cooldown-only champions are when the character is dependent on having zero limiters at all time. Intrinsically, cooldown-only is best used if the character has a low success rate on their abilities but you still want them to use their abilities as quickly/consistently as possible. Characters that you want to establish a consistent rhythm on, for example, are best serviced through being cooldown-only.

Cooldown-only can also take mind-share off of the character from having to manage resources and put mind-share on things that are hard to execute overall. In effect, if you have an extremely complicated character kit - you can shift some of that complexity away from resource management so that players can focus on the complicated part of the kit.

While I fully admit we don't use each resource to the best of their ability, picking the right resource type does have benefits in terms of the overall flow they establish. Mana itself isn't perfect in a some respects because as the game goes on - it becomes less relevant - and yet it is such a constraint early game that you want to itemize for something that becomes useless.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0TsarBomb0 View Post
How does not having to be limited by a resource "hindering"?
Because it completely eliminates the depth of governing the abilities of a champion and player. Nothing is controlling katarina's abilities except the abilities themselves. While the abilities themselves are balanced around not having mana (somewhat), what's missing is the decision to use an ability for fear of not being able to use it when you need to later on due to misuse of your resource governing said ability. Or baiting your opponent to attack you so he wastes his mana, so you can retaliate later.

There's "A LOT" of subtle things that goes on, that I don't think you guys think about when it comes to mana. There's even items for it.


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theCreeperlord

Senior Member

12-13-2012

I would just say that youre limited to Manamune/Muramana btw Archangel

I mean if you buy frozen heart You often just buy it for armor and the cdr like on Malphite .


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Heliostorm

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaarrjj View Post
Because it completely eliminates the depth of governing the abilities of a champion and player. Nothing is controlling katarina's abilities except the abilities themselves. While the abilities themselves are balanced around not having mana (somewhat), what's missing is the decision to use an ability for fear of not being able to use it when you need to later on due to misuse of your resource governing said ability. Or baiting your opponent to attack you so he wastes his mana, so you can retaliate later.

There's "A LOT" of subtle things that goes on, that I don't think you guys think about when it comes to mana. There's even items for it.
What you just said is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the definition of hindering a champion. You don't have the fear of not being able to use it, nothing is controlling the abilities except the abilities, you can't be baited into wasting them.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
A very rough breakdown of resources:

Mana is a limiter in lane but ceases to become a limiter late game. Mana is best on characters on most characters. You limit their one-minute case - but do not hinder their short-term case. Mana is best used on very highly accurate abilites that you need to gate through their frequency over time.

Energy is a non-limiter in lane but a drastic limiter in team fights. You use energy if you want to gate the maximum chaining potential of an ability - but not affect their overall usage on a time basis. Heat is very similar to Energy in this paradigm.

Fury is a non-limiter in lane and a limiter in team fights. Since Fury is defined very different on a kit by kit basis - it is the kit that serves to define how well Fury is used.

Health Costs are a non-limiter in lane and a non-limiter in team fights. However, Health Costs mostly punish improper usage of abilities but not hinder them. Health Costs can also be particularly good on abilities that you always want constrained in some fashion by making it have a relevant cost in any situation.

Cooldown-only champions are when the character is dependent on having zero limiters at all time. Intrinsically, cooldown-only is best used if the character has a low success rate on their abilities but you still want them to use their abilities as quickly as possible.

While I fully admit we don't use each resource to the best of their ability, picking the right resource type does have benefits. Mana itself isn't perfect in a some respects because as the game goes on - it becomes less relevant - and yet it is such a constraint early game that you want to itemize for something that becomes useless.
The problem with non mana related champions is that they have no strategic use of resource for the short term, which happens way more than the long term. And even in the long term mana is more important depending on the champions kit. You could do everything you're doing with energy, health costs with mana.

When you remove mana from the equation you are completely removing the players skill of having to determine how to engage their abilities and resource to the many confrontations that happen throughout the entire game.

It's solely because mana can "run out". You can't wait for it. So you have to be careful.


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