S3 Jungle Gold Starvation Still Exists

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kchaosrei View Post
The new jungle is a nightmare. Why jungle when i can just go sit in the enemy jungle and wait for him to come around the corner extreamly hurt? And then take his buff and get first blood?

Tank jungle is impossible to do now. Any brusier can walk in and mop him up.

while i understand that you want to make it harder for lanes ot be ganked. you are going to cause junglers to gank each other more. Welcome to the new jungle where u get farmed not the creeps.
pre rework twitch would fb a squishy jungler with a bad leash 100%

now it can be done by and lv1 duelist


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Blazing Pascal

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
I think the "problem" we are having. is that you guys came out and said multiple times that jungle gold would be increased... it is even stated on the video released with the patch, but you obviously made the jungle harder, and early gold is less when you factor in time/difficulty.

I am fine with the jungle being harder, and ganks being harder (since we have an item that is equivalent to nothing vs champs)... I actually agree with that change. Just keep your word and increase the jungle gold if we are supposed to farm instead of get early kills/assists now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Levgre

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
Why did you think you might've got gold jungle values right when you essentially did not change them?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DonQuixoté

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
it isnt just this, its that junglers lost one essential gp10 item (HoG) as well as having problems keeping up with laners because we are forced to spend 700-800 gold for an essentially useless item (razor or spirit stone). At a minimum, we lost 200 gold with pots, are 300g behind with the hunters machete, and are another 300-400g behind with razor, and another 1150? gold behind if our character doesnt have any sustain (for wriggles)... in season 1 jungle cloth armor had MANY different build paths, hunters machete has 2, and they are only focused on clearing the jungle


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CupcakeRaptorr

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
TL DR: Made jungle harder, if you can't get ganks you will be more worthless than a support.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ethri

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazing Pascal View Post
I think the "problem" we are having. is that you guys came out and said multiple times that jungle gold would be increased... it is even stated on the video released with the patch, but you obviously made the jungle harder, and early gold is less when you factor in time/difficulty.

I am fine with the jungle being harder, and ganks being harder (since we have an item that is equivalent to nothing vs champs)... I actually agree with that change. Just keep your word and increase the jungle gold if we are supposed to farm instead of get early kills/assists now.
If you take into consideration that lane minion kills are worth less now... jungle gold did increase in comparison to lane gold.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethri View Post
If you take into consideration that lane minion kills are worth less now... jungle gold did increase in comparison to lane gold.
no, ambient gold makes laner gold exactly the same, actually more with the 17 gold buff to siege minions

junglers get less


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Free Roll

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatfishGumbo View Post
am I the only one that remembers after the last jungle changes the issues (that turned out to be non-issues) for days thereafter. How can anyone post these kind of judgments before things have been allowed to settle down?

lie more? there were huge issues with last season jungle changes, and honestly they never got it right, which is why they are trying to fix it yet again, and also why most junglers ended up silly aoe GP5 builders because the jungle was garbage and the role has become sone trivial support cc role.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Iateurcookie

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
Just posting because I see a bit of logical fallacy. I don't think anyone ever said they want to circle a jungler for 25 minutes and come out being able to smash everyone. People just want to come out of the jungle and be even with an un-assisted lane. Lanes that are assisted by their junglers will be much better off for the jungler and the lane (a good reason to come out of the jungle), and the junglers who assist those lanes will be losing out on experience and gold from their jungle, and are not guaranteed success (especially with the support buffs). I know that assisting the team is important, but I don't see why that required the loss of Heart of Gold for junglers. Sure they may have the most gold after the first four minutes, but as you said yourself, no one is going to just let them farm jungle around the 11 minute mark, so why nerf gold back to S2 levels and tell people to "try something different" with items they can't necessarily afford because of the gold nerf?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

crispymelonbread

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethri View Post
If you take into consideration that lane minion kills are worth less now... jungle gold did increase in comparison to lane gold.
This is only if the laner misses the siege minions. They actually get more gold than s2 if they do get the siege minions.