@Tryndamere @Ryze @Morello Final Pre-season Feedback

12345678 ... 12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eserine

Senior Member

11-21-2012

A challenge to Hippalus on the subject of more diverse champions:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...1#post31697857


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eserine

Senior Member

11-26-2012

As predicted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaRatmastah View Post
So if Rengar can collect Kha'Zix' head...
Why can't Warwick collect Soraka's heart? O__o
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaRatmastah View Post
Oh yeah, i wasn't necessarily saying this as a gameplay mechanic, more along the lines of lore. We know WW needs soraka's heart to save himself, and the general thought is, "Well, he can't take it on the fields of justice, because nothing there actually happens for real," but Rengar can collect Kha'Zix's head, so I'm just wondering why WW hasn't cure himself yet?
The answer as Kitae would have it is that the game 'League of Legends' no longer "features" any reference to The League of Legends (as when Karthus decides to become infected with invisible malignant algae instead of pursuing summoning magic to kill himself repeatedly and actually draw closer to what he is supposedly obsessed with).

Why? Apparently logical frameworks are too "limiting"... though even LaLaLaDemacia incorporated summoners and the Institute of War, and it was written by amateur animators as a parody series (seemingly without access to any of the original English source material beyond occasional translation treatments), because they felt their story could benefit from making sense.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eserine

Senior Member

12-03-2012

As we draw closer to the end of the pre-season there remains a constant inflow of numerous players asking for more racial representation within the game (as always), and of course many more posts complaining about the terrible quality of the lore. As I have already posted numerous examples of this ignored feedback which I feel indicate serious and growing problems with the game, I would instead like to take the opportunity to examine some equally disturbing posts more directly pertaining to Riot's behaviors managerially as of late.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
Interesting speculation..... :O
Kitae breaks her long silence in the lore forums to express feelings of astonishment for a badly-crafted and ill-fitting framework proposed by a thoughtless player, sadly because, in all probability, the lore team was initially not creative enough to come up with such ideas themselves, and now, looking for a circumvention to the errors they have committed, cannot recognize the intrinsic problems with bad ideas being put forward by others (unless instead she is merely choosing to be patronizing and not take the time to help such players improve their skill, which I feel isn't likely given the quality of storytelling she has allowed to already blossom into thorny weeds of uncoordinated clutter).

What specifically is wrong with this player proposal? None of it fits with what has already been implemented within the game. The stories don't work together with the map features and alterations to the Twisted Treeline and they don't work together with the character designs of the champions they relate to- returning to our previous example of Mordekaiser's lore being wrongly crafted, Kitae seems to like the idea of his armor being a prison that he is attempting to escape from. Within the game however Mordekaiser demonstrates a perfect control over his armor, he uses it to hit other players and shield himself and flakes off massive shards seemingly at will, it perfectly matches the color and material of his mace (not mentioned), and his trademark joke is "I like my women like I like my music, HEAVY and METAL!", Mordekaiser likes metal when his metal armor constitutes a prison keeping him for centuries on a quest to free himself and gain dominion over the world? That makes absolutely no sense! Of course in discussing Karthus in the past Kitae has discussed a willingness to go into the game and change the soundfiles, since "share my curse" as a phrase was also apparently beyond the consideration of the lore team when they altered Karthus recently. Thus beloved and established characterization elements are destroyed to fit the purposes of a careless and weak paradigm of garbage-lore. Every instance of character-summary in the thread Kitae commented on likewise holds these issues of discordance and misappropriation.

It is as though the purported upcoming "League of Legends" novel will take the form of:

Legends of the League: Revolutions
By Christina Norman and Riot Games

Chapter 1, The Quickening Terror


Once a cute puppy walked into a bakery, oh, sorry, did I say puppy? I meant a man. A man walks into a tax office, actually come to think of it it was actually a giraffe. A giraffe walks into the tax office.... No! No! The desert! one day and finds a magical fountain, I... I mean a magical guitar, and the magical guitar tricks the walrus into becoming a magical fairy, who then leaves the coffeeshop and uses fairy magic, for over seven decades, in order to cast a spell to mail a letter at the post office to a dentist. The fairy couldn't just place a letter in the post office box... because... reasons. and then there was an ultimate battle between fairies and dentists! Bang bang bang! Pchoo pchoo! Suddenly, the dentists had this planned all along! One of the dentists is Olaf. Runeterra is saved forever!


Next the player "Prince Kassad" (who has many times throughout the forums requested further racial representation within the game with specific examples and argued with me that Riot actually listens to player feedback), asks in a thread that Nidalee's lore be altered. While his discussion actually touches upon all three of the initial issues I brought up in the original post in consideration of Riot their are a number of disturbing and incorrect aspects to his reasoning, namely that Nidalee is not perceived as being Amazonian by most players (especially in terms of the visual remake where players describe her as frumpy and plain-looking and note that her racial characteristics have been altered even further between skins to make her more of an ethnomorph), secondly that any form of rewrite is to be encouraged simply because rewrites are inevitable when the end-product ends up being terrible (as another player rightly calls him on), and finally that "The Jungle Book" by Rudyard Kipling is to be looked to as a good counterexample, which is actually horrifying

Quote:
It is no use pretending that Kipling's view of life, as a whole, can be accepted or even forgiven by any civilized person. It is no use claiming, for instance, that when Kipling describes a British soldier beating a "****er" with a cleaning rod in order to get money out of him, he is acting merely as a reporter and does not necessarily approve what he describes. There is not the slightest sign anywhere in Kipling's work that he disapproves of that kind of conduct — on the contrary, there is a definite strain of sadism in him, over and above the brutality which a writer of that type has to have. Kipling is a jingo imperialist, he is morally insensitive and aesthetically disgusting.

- George Orwell
When Kipling wrote "The Jungle Book" he meant the natives to be seen as animals, much like all of the animals speak to one another in "The Wind and the Willows", or more directly Kipling's "Just So Stories"

notable passages including pg. 56: "The Ethiopian was really a negro, and so his name was Sambo." and later ""Plain black's best for a n--""

Kipling's work "The White Man's Burden" is often interpreted by modern audiences as a satire or only "imperialistically racist", but in Kipling's life and politics a different sort of man was revealed, as noted by another commenter on the internet who succinctly summarizes:

Quote:
During the Irish crisis, for instance, his views were positively ass-backward compared even with the majority of the people in Great Britain, the Government, and especially the vast majority of the world. He believed in his doctrine of the white man's burden enough to be an avid supporter of reactionary insurrection against the British Parliament in the case of the Irish - or any other group - being allowed to leave complete British domination.
for Kipling the English and Aryans alone existed upon the Earth as a transcendent race of angelic beings, marrying other ethnic groups in recklessness as one might be misled into marrying a hedgehog.

As the lore team seems to be comprised of functional illiterates of course it is much more likely that they would rely instead on the Disney Movie for inspiration, which Prince Kassad likewise seems unaware of being rather poorly carried out. Did Riot intend to bring forward these patterns in creating Nidalee in the name of Morello's "thematic recognizability" for players who love the offensive and disgusting portrayals of prejudice - such as actually do exist throughout "Tarzan" and "George of the Jungle" or the unmentioned Arthur Conan Doyle's "Lost World"? Yes they did, a celebrated trope which they may not have grasped as being offensive (point two in my original post), or alternatively they did understand and just didn't care, or rationalized it as being appropriate, which is wholly inappropriate.

Where Prince Kassad hopes to influence the writers into implementing better design patterns he plays with fire (not in the idea that anyone in the lore department will actually listen to him, but in the other readers of the thread who may become writers one day). Kumungu was written with the explicit purpose of propagating stereotypes, much like the pygmy-monster jungles of Diablo II or the "Mummy" films of Brendan Fraser.

Lastly there is the managerial issue of sweatshop labor in The Philippines, which I intend to write a second thread about.

If any readers have additional issues they feel should be listed in this thread which haven't been receiving much attention feel free to post them below!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Henry Plainview

Senior Member

12-03-2012

I still don't care about any of the lore, at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Lastly there is the managerial issue of sweatshop labor in The Philippines, which I intend to write a second thread about.
Wait, what?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Misterpigs

Senior Member

12-03-2012

so the only thing wrong is that the lore is bad

wut


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lagginator

Senior Member

12-03-2012

I love you, Eserine. Your arguments are well-informed and beautiful.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Durendal

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-03-2012

a) While issues you find to be in the game, none of them had anything to do with the pre-season.

b) you REALLY could have cut out some wordiness

c) I care about lore too (I miss the judgements). Definitely not one of their main concerns though, or most players
edit on this point: they have stated several times they want this to be an e-sport focused game. which is nice but, i do wish they would find time for judgements again. Just have one/two dedicated person/people

d) Racism, on the player front, they can't really stop. Report more. However, I really do agree they need more champion variety. And not just to fill out a roster or anything, It should be basic art/design choice. Variety is good.

Like, it took ages of people complaining for a female tank before they came up with leona (sidenote: still ended up a support. wtf?).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SpiffmeisterZ

Senior Member

12-03-2012

So did I just read something about the poor quality of lore, issues with racism, or an argument about people needing to not watch bad movies or TV shows and instead worry about global warming?

Anyway from the point that resonated with me... Shadow Isle lore tidbits from altars: AMAZING! Loved it... Hope to see it, you know, GO somewhere. The void, all the monsters from it, all the people touched by it... Will it ever, you know, GO somewhere?

Warwick and Soraka lore... Warwick was evil, Soraka got mad and lashed out with her powers for selfish reasons and got punished for it, as well as it backfiring. Epic fail and fall from grace... Amusing and interesting.

New lore... Warwick is evil and Soraka is punished for trying to save someone she thought was her friend. Yeah... May as well go smack a baby for sucking on the wrong lactating breast.

The epic fail of the previous lore presented an ongoing story with many outcomes, but... Since that's too hard 'Rawr rawr rawr I will steal your heart but either forget how to take it from your corpse when you die or it can't be taken when summoning magic is used so why am I even in the League trying to do this?'

And squandered possibilities abound...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NJ Gamer

Member

12-03-2012

i will agree, the lore is ****
im not really sure what your other points were tbh


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eserine

Senior Member

12-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Plainview View Post
I still don't care about any of the lore, at all.
Quote:
Lastly there is the managerial issue of sweatshop labor in The Philippines, which I intend to write a second thread about.
Wait, what?
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...0#post32065750

As a player who has named themself after a character in a Paul Thomas Anderson film I find it hard to believe that you "still don't care about any of the lore, at all". Still I maintain that you WILL care when the lore becomes painful enough to read to begin to draw negative attention from people who do not play the game and it becomes embarrassing to be associated with the entire enterprise, or bad enough that players begin to quit out of disgust in favor of better written games (which I feel given past examples is a very real risk).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagginator View Post
I love you, Eserine. Your arguments are well-informed and beautiful.
I love you too Lagginator. Your posts are awesome. I would friend you in-game but I am boycotting Riot until these issues are resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durendal View Post
a) While issues you find to be in the game, none of them had anything to do with the pre-season.

b) you REALLY could have cut out some wordiness

c) I care about lore too (I miss the judgements). Definitely not one of their main concerns though, or most players
edit on this point: they have stated several times they want this to be an e-sport focused game. which is nice but, i do wish they would find time for judgements again. Just have one/two dedicated person/people

d) Racism, on the player front, they can't really stop. Report more. However, I really do agree they need more champion variety. And not just to fill out a roster or anything, It should be basic art/design choice. Variety is good.

Like, it took ages of people complaining for a female tank before they came up with leona (sidenote: still ended up a support. wtf?).
I anticipate these issues I've mentioned as driving away more players in the future who might become potential customers or are current customers than any development regarding e-sports. According to Pendragon and Lyte it is actually possible to stop racism on the player front, but I feel they are overlooking significant factors in their single-minded approach. Apologies for my wordiness, I just wanted to make myself clear. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiffmeisterZ View Post
So did I just read something about the poor quality of lore, issues with racism, or an argument about people needing to not watch bad movies or TV shows and instead worry about global warming?

Anyway from the point that resonated with me... Shadow Isle lore tidbits from altars: AMAZING! Loved it... Hope to see it, you know, GO somewhere. The void, all the monsters from it, all the people touched by it... Will it ever, you know, GO somewhere?

Warwick and Soraka lore... Warwick was evil, Soraka got mad and lashed out with her powers for selfish reasons and got punished for it, as well as it backfiring. Epic fail and fall from grace... Amusing and interesting.

New lore... Warwick is evil and Soraka is punished for trying to save someone she thought was her friend. Yeah... May as well go smack a baby for sucking on the wrong lactating breast.

The epic fail of the previous lore presented an ongoing story with many outcomes, but... Since that's too hard 'Rawr rawr rawr I will steal your heart but either forget how to take it from your corpse when you die or it can't be taken when summoning magic is used so why am I even in the League trying to do this?'

And squandered possibilities abound...
+1 to you! I agree completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Gamer View Post
i will agree, the lore is ****
im not really sure what your other points were tbh
At least we partially agree


12345678 ... 12