You cant be serious about this ban

First Riot Post
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Nasdrovia499

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WookieeCookie View Post
Don't be a jerk.
[...]
The process is always being iterated on and improved though. And if the PB&J Team sees a need for the additional context to be shown, I'm confident in their abilities to make that happen.
While I agree with the general idea, I have 2 problems with this.

1. Clearly, there is a lack of context in tribunal cases.

- People sometimes make jokes (or insults) related to the summoners names, which you can't see (but that I understand why).
- People know how the tribunal works and abuse it, either to avoid getting banned or to increase the chances of someone else being banned.
Typically, the "good guy" asks for a report in /all due to someone blatantly feeding on purpose (which cant be seen in tribunal) and the feeder answers in /all "this guy keeps harassing me, I just lagged/I'm just bad at this game / whatever **** excuse there is to run into the enemy base 1v5".
That's just an example ofc, but these kinds of "tribunal dodgers" get really annoying.
- the goddamn lobby (mostly before, but also after game) ! Make it readable please, including the picks, it would explain so much... Right now, there's no way to know who trollpicked in a specific case, and it gets even worse if there is a premade involved.
- Speaking of which...Please indicate whenever 2 or more players are premade. Those tend to defend each other in chat no matter how wrong they are, and there's no way to see it.
- Various actions : if the Riven top comes all the way down to blue buff to steal it from Anivia, I can't know it for sure. The only way is to take Anivia's word for it in report, but what if Anivia lies ? Or Riven simply secured it from the enemy Swain ? Or she last hit it to lifesteal and survive a dot ? Likewise, when is it okay for a jungler to come mid and take a wave of cs ? when does it become "being a jerk" ?


2. Regarding the chat, words used, and picks only : What you said about rules. That's a great philosophy to live by. "Don't be a jerk". But rules must, by definition, be specific to some extent. Where do you draw the line, when does one become a jerk ? You gave very clear and obvious examples, but often it isn't that simple.
- Words you cant say ? There's a filter for that, if you're offended by some words, just turn it on.
- Suboptimal / out of the meta picks : there's no need for a rule.
- Last pick should be support ? No rule for that either.

As long as people actually try to win and don't ruin the fun for the others, there's no need for a rule. Define clearly what's offensive or not and the amounts of complaints will drop drastically. Possibly the number of cases too. For problems such as the one above with buff stolen, it's obviously more complicated and you would need to see the actual game to judge.

"Don't be a jerk" should be the generic idea for Riot to create those clear, specific rules imho. Leaving it to the jury's interpretation, while lacking data, is just not professional.


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Tenmar

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WookieeCookie View Post
[COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk.[/COLOR]

Players frequently write to my team full of excuses for their case, or fearful that they're going to get banned in the future.

They often want to debate the Summoner's Code down point by point.

Is it okay to do this? What about that? What if someone else does X, and I do Y to them in retaliation? Can I get banned for Z?

And our response can always be summed up with one simple phrase:

[COLOR="red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


Sometimes player's ask why isn't the Summoner's Code more specific? Why doesn't it specify each and every action I can or can't do? But they don't notice that we wrote the Code that way on purpose.

We don't want to run a game dictated by strict specific rules. Because every game is unique, and played by different standards.


How much fun would a rule be that says you can never say the F word in your matches?

How much fun would a rule be that says last pick must always be support?

How much fun would a rule say that you can never be Rammus support because he's not considered "optimal" by the community?


Every game should be judged by its own context. And that's why the core rule is always:

[COLOR="red"]Don't be a jerk.[/COLOR]


You can say the F word in a friendly context:



You can also say it in a very toxic context:




---The key difference? [COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


Sometimes it makes sense for last pick to be something besides support:


Sometimes the situation can be very toxic:



---The key difference? [COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


Sometimes it makes sense to go with a real unusual support pick:



Sometimes an unusual pick can be really toxic:



---The key difference? [COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


I've seen this case emote spamming case before. And he fails the test. [COLOR="Red"]He was being a jerk.[/COLOR]

You can see in his matches that other players ask him to stop. They even do so nicely at some points. But this player doesn't care. [COLOR="red"]He doesn't care because he's being a jerk.[/COLOR]

Is he using a feature of our game which has many legitimate purposes? Of course!

But is he abusing this legitimate feature to be a [COLOR="red"]jerk[/COLOR]? Yes. He is literally spamming the same phrase throughout the entire duration of the game.

Could other players fiddle with their sound settings to disable this? Sure.

Should we expect other players to adjust their player experience because a [COLOR="Red"]jerk [/COLOR]is harassing them?

No. Never.

I even spent some extra time looking up this player's past harassment history. This is not an isolated 5 games this player has done this. He has repeatedly found ways to annoy and harass other players. That's the main reason he has a tribunal case in the first place.

Lyte has mentioned this in the past, but the Tribunal is really great at finding jerks in our game. But it's not always great at providing the full context of just how much of a jerk they are. But always keep in mind it takes many reports, in many games, by many people to even be considered for the Tribunal. The system may only pull 1 to 5 chat logs for a case, but make no doubt about it, the accused has been reported in many many more games than that.

The process is always being iterated on and improved though. And if the PB&J Team sees a need for the additional context to be shown, I'm confident in their abilities to make that happen.
1. Since when was being a jerk a crime? Or should be treated as such? Do you see police arrest people because they were being a jerk?

2. Doesn't it bother you that you actually are creating fear in people's hearts and souls when they play your game because of the even haunting feeling of being banned?

3. Do you really feel so strongly that you could if spending a day in the life or with that person you think is a jerk could still call them a jerk to their face and treat them as less of a person?

4. Even our founding fathers here in the USA understood that a declaration by itself is meaningless as it leaves everything open to interpretation. A constitution lets the people know what laws and rights they have as a member of society.


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AnonTwo

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Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
The biggest problem I have with this is that if this is a legitimate concern/annoyance on Riot's behalf, then they need to add a cooldown to the taunts/jokes/laugh or make it so it's spammable, but has a "reservoir", like TF2's system (ie: you can spam a taunt/medic/spy/need a dispenser here about 5-6 times in a row, but then you have to wait a good 10-15 seconds before you can do it again...the longer you wait, the more you can spam again, which gates the total amount of spam).

Secondly, when you have people like Dyrus spamming laugh during entire games and it being encouraged by Phreak (albeit when playig Singed), I really don't think this should be punishable if this is their only infraction.

If there's other stuff, sure, I could understand, but by itself, why? Also, if people figure out this is punishable, teams will just start false-reporting for spamming since there's no way to tell, from chat logs that someone is shift+1/2/3/4ing. For example, what if someone is having fun spamming, but is told to stop and they immediately comply, yet still gets reported--Again, no way to tell how many times they taunted/joked/laughed, and no way of telling if they stopped afterwards, either.

I find it highly amusing that (1) allies reporting this are low compared to enemies (2) He won the games and did very well in each, which tells me this is a bit of a revenge/get back at you for doing well/beating us by capitalizing one something small that you did sorta thing.
CONTEXT

Just because one game finds it offensive doesn't mean another will. There's already complaints about Riot "moderating fun" anyway

The rule of thumb "don't be a jerk" should get you past 9/10 scenarios...because usually if there's a chance you'll be a jerk, someone will ask you to stop before it gets out of hand anyway.

The volume needed, ontop of the fact you really have to not understand the atmosphere of the people around you at all, on top of doing that a significant number of times.

You don't see every case. You'd want to be paid if you had to see every case. This is a simplistic jury meant to get through millions of a toxic players. Just being raised right should keep your account safe.


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Trudbuglar

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Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methelod View Post
Then you didn't read your own post.
This. The red post in this thread is absolutely gold, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you, WookieCookie, for not only clarifying, but for reaffirming that Riot will not tolerate childish, rude behavior. No matter what actions it attempts to hide behind.


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Trudbuglar

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Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenmar View Post
1. Since when was being a jerk a crime? Or should be treated as such? Do you see police arrest people because they were being a jerk?

2. Doesn't it bother you that you actually are creating fear in people's hearts and souls when they play your game because of the even haunting feeling of being banned?

3. Do you really feel so strongly that you could if spending a day in the life or with that person you think is a jerk could still call them a jerk to their face and treat them as less of a person?

Real life crime =/= Bannable in an online video game. Most of the things that get you banned in video games are unlikely to get you arrested in real life.

Stupid hyperbolic comparison is stupid and hyperbolic.


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GyjYa

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenmar View Post
1. Since when was being a jerk a crime? Or should be treated as such? Do you see police arrest people because they were being a jerk?

2. Doesn't it bother you that you actually are creating fear in people's hearts and souls when they play your game because of the even haunting feeling of being banned?

3. Do you really feel so strongly that you could if spending a day in the life or with that person you think is a jerk could still call them a jerk to their face and treat them as less of a person?
1. Being a jerk in League of Legends isn't a crime. But it will get you banned. As it should.

2. If people are afraid in their heart and soul of being an ass, then ****ing MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

3. um....don't even know how to respond to this....


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tempnameA461

Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GyjYa View Post
1. Being a jerk in League of Legends isn't a crime. But it will get you banned. As it should.
Totally seems fair.


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Calys Teneb

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WookieeCookie View Post
[COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk.[/COLOR]

Players frequently write to my team full of excuses for their case, or fearful that they're going to get banned in the future.

They often want to debate the Summoner's Code down point by point.

Is it okay to do this? What about that? What if someone else does X, and I do Y to them in retaliation? Can I get banned for Z?

And our response can always be summed up with one simple phrase:

[COLOR="red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


Sometimes player's ask why isn't the Summoner's Code more specific? Why doesn't it specify each and every action I can or can't do? But they don't notice that we wrote the Code that way on purpose.

We don't want to run a game dictated by strict specific rules. Because every game is unique, and played by different standards.


How much fun would a rule be that says you can never say the F word in your matches?

How much fun would a rule be that says last pick must always be support?

How much fun would a rule say that you can never be Rammus support because he's not considered "optimal" by the community?


Every game should be judged by its own context. And that's why the core rule is always:

[COLOR="red"]Don't be a jerk.[/COLOR]


You can say the F word in a friendly context:



You can also say it in a very toxic context:




---The key difference? [COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


Sometimes it makes sense for last pick to be something besides support:


Sometimes the situation can be very toxic:



---The key difference? [COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


Sometimes it makes sense to go with a real unusual support pick:



Sometimes an unusual pick can be really toxic:



---The key difference? [COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


I've seen this case emote spamming case before. And he fails the test. [COLOR="Red"]He was being a jerk.[/COLOR]

You can see in his matches that other players ask him to stop. They even do so nicely at some points. But this player doesn't care. [COLOR="red"]He doesn't care because he's being a jerk.[/COLOR]

Is he using a feature of our game which has many legitimate purposes? Of course!

But is he abusing this legitimate feature to be a [COLOR="red"]jerk[/COLOR]? Yes. He is literally spamming the same phrase throughout the entire duration of the game.

Could other players fiddle with their sound settings to disable this? Sure.

Should we expect other players to adjust their player experience because a [COLOR="Red"]jerk [/COLOR]is harassing them?

No. Never.

I even spent some extra time looking up this player's past harassment history. This is not an isolated 5 games this player has done this. He has repeatedly found ways to annoy and harass other players. That's the main reason he has a tribunal case in the first place.

Lyte has mentioned this in the past, but the Tribunal is really great at finding jerks in our game. But it's not always great at providing the full context of just how much of a jerk they are. But always keep in mind it takes many reports, in many games, by many people to even be considered for the Tribunal. The system may only pull 1 to 5 chat logs for a case, but make no doubt about it, the accused has been reported in many many more games than that.

The process is always being iterated on and improved though. And if the PB&J Team sees a need for the additional context to be shown, I'm confident in their abilities to make that happen.

Wookie, am I a jerk if I ask you to have my manbabies?


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YoshiStampedeBlu

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WookieeCookie View Post
[COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk.[/COLOR]

Players frequently write to my team full of excuses for their case, or fearful that they're going to get banned in the future.

They often want to debate the Summoner's Code down point by point.

Is it okay to do this? What about that? What if someone else does X, and I do Y to them in retaliation? Can I get banned for Z?

And our response can always be summed up with one simple phrase:

[COLOR="red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


Sometimes player's ask why isn't the Summoner's Code more specific? Why doesn't it specify each and every action I can or can't do? But they don't notice that we wrote the Code that way on purpose.

We don't want to run a game dictated by strict specific rules. Because every game is unique, and played by different standards.


How much fun would a rule be that says you can never say the F word in your matches?

How much fun would a rule be that says last pick must always be support?

How much fun would a rule say that you can never be Rammus support because he's not considered "optimal" by the community?


Every game should be judged by its own context. And that's why the core rule is always:

[COLOR="red"]Don't be a jerk.[/COLOR]


You can say the F word in a friendly context:



You can also say it in a very toxic context:




---The key difference? [COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


Sometimes it makes sense for last pick to be something besides support:


Sometimes the situation can be very toxic:



---The key difference? [COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


Sometimes it makes sense to go with a real unusual support pick:



Sometimes an unusual pick can be really toxic:



---The key difference? [COLOR="Red"]Don't be a jerk[/COLOR]


I've seen this case emote spamming case before. And he fails the test. [COLOR="Red"]He was being a jerk.[/COLOR]

You can see in his matches that other players ask him to stop. They even do so nicely at some points. But this player doesn't care. [COLOR="red"]He doesn't care because he's being a jerk.[/COLOR]

Is he using a feature of our game which has many legitimate purposes? Of course!

But is he abusing this legitimate feature to be a [COLOR="red"]jerk[/COLOR]? Yes. He is literally spamming the same phrase throughout the entire duration of the game.

Could other players fiddle with their sound settings to disable this? Sure.

Should we expect other players to adjust their player experience because a [COLOR="Red"]jerk [/COLOR]is harassing them?

No. Never.

I even spent some extra time looking up this player's past harassment history. This is not an isolated 5 games this player has done this. He has repeatedly found ways to annoy and harass other players. That's the main reason he has a tribunal case in the first place.

Lyte has mentioned this in the past, but the Tribunal is really great at finding jerks in our game. But it's not always great at providing the full context of just how much of a jerk they are. But always keep in mind it takes many reports, in many games, by many people to even be considered for the Tribunal. The system may only pull 1 to 5 chat logs for a case, but make no doubt about it, the accused has been reported in many many more games than that.

The process is always being iterated on and improved though. And if the PB&J Team sees a need for the additional context to be shown, I'm confident in their abilities to make that happen.

What's your opinion on the following cases:


A sona that constantly takes kills/cs is being a jerk. He knows that a support doesn't need much gold but insists on taking the carries income.
He's being a jerk -> Reportable?

Jungler isn't forfeiting blue buff to mid even though the jungler doesn't use mana.
He's being a jerk -> Reprtable?

Darius refuses to use any skills or auto attacks until someone has low hp and then proceedes to gulliotine taking multiple kills from teammates.

Said darius won't help his team unless he gets the kills.
He's being a jerk ->Reportable?

Blitzcrank/Syndra constantly resetting ally jungler's red/blue buffs.
He's being a jerk ->Reportable?

Ally champion is regularly stealing the health relics in Dominion/Proving grounds from needy teammates, even though the relics will not benefit said ally champion in anyway. (ie full health/mana)
He's being a jerk ->Reportable?

An ally champion continues to afk push a lane instead of helping the team with global objectives (Baron/Drag) or participate in any team fight.
He's being a jerk -> Reportable?

Ally champion jungler doesn't want you to help him/her doing dragon, ever. As soon as anyone comes to help he/she flahes over the wall and leaves them there and says " I said I didn't want any help!"
He's being a jerk ->Reportable?

Ally champion in ranked calls a lane and doesn't want to compromise. (even though said ally champion is last pick)
He's being a jerk ->Reportable?

Ally champion threatens to afk/feed with promote and revive to force a dodge.
He's being a jerk ->Reportable?


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Tenmar

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GyjYa View Post
1. Being a jerk in League of Legends isn't a crime. But it will get you banned. As it should.

2. If people are afraid in their heart and soul of being an ass, then ****ing MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

3. um....don't even know how to respond to this....

So you are telling me that you are perfectly fine with being ruled in a society based on fear?

Also, you don't know how to respond living a day in another person's shoes? Talking to their family, friends, doing the same activities as the person you think is a jerk? What makes you so confident that person is what you think they are? Can you honestly say that you know people just from the small amount of time playing a single match with them better than them? What if their life is ****? An abusive or neglectful home? Or a life with no social interaction? Or after a long day of ditch digging? What exactly makes you the better and more superior person?