@Zileas - Counter Play

First Riot Post
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Super Explosion

Senior Member

11-23-2012

After watching the video--

That sniper example is awful.

Snipers provide area denial that is countered by effective observant spotting and flanking.

Both mechanics can be enjoyable, as might be illustrated in the fun of sneaking up behind a scoped in sniper and knifing him.

It's not the sniper's existence that's the problem, usually, it's the map design causing stagnation by lack of tactical choices like flanking.

As for World of Tanks, "luring" the SPGs to attack your heavy tanks is not really an appropriate counter-- that's what they want to do.

They perhaps should have discussed the firing arcs relative to the map terrain in creation of variety in tactical maneuvers.


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CarlSagansCosmos

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
IOf course, the game needs to snowball at some point, but there's a question of how much, for what action, when, etc.
Honest question, and I'm sincerely curious, why is snowballing necessary at any point? I love my sports as much as the next guy, and except for more points and "being on fire", sports really don't punish the losers more and gift the winners more. I am very appreciative that you don't think it should snowball harder but has there ever been talk of removing generally the snowball effect all together, with to keep a game from lasting forever, degenerating tower/inhibitor system? Has something like this been tried in other games and they failed, or discussion of why not to to model them closer to RL sports?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-23-2012
27 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlSagansCosmos View Post
Honest question, and I'm sincerely curious, why is snowballing necessary at any point? I love my sports as much as the next guy, and except for more points and "being on fire", sports really don't punish the losers more and gift the winners more. I am very appreciative that you don't think it should snowball harder but has there ever been talk of removing generally the snowball effect all together, with to keep a game from lasting forever, degenerating tower/inhibitor system? Has something like this been tried in other games and they failed, or discussion of why not to to model them closer to RL sports?
Because you need the game to end, and your options are essentially:
1) Fixed time match (e.g. most 'points' at time X wins)
2) Specific win condition that will eventually happen

if you go for #2, you don't get a fixed match time. If you add snowballing, if it tends to happen later in the game, will create a more reliable match length. You can also do other mechanics, but the ones that fully solve this tend to be very heavy handed.


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FlySkyHigh777

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Hey Zileas, what is your opinion of snowballing champion mechanics? A la Veigar or Nasus' Q's? Do you feel like those are a good or bad thing?


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CarlSagansCosmos

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Because you need the game to end, and your options are essentially:
1) Fixed time match (e.g. most 'points' at time X wins)
2) Specific win condition that will eventually happen

if you go for #2, you don't get a fixed match time. If you add snowballing, if it tends to happen later in the game, will create a more reliable match length. You can also do other mechanics, but the ones that fully solve this tend to be very heavy handed.
Appreciate the response. Thank you.

Is it possible to have them both on one?

For example, Base degrades so that at 40 min. mark it explodes, but can be made to explode sooner by going the normal route (Towers, inhibitors...ect...) with points ranging from tower kills, dragon control, baron control.

Has there ever been a game that had mechanic #1 that failed which is why so many online games tend to go with 2? It seems to work well for RL sports (not that #2 doesn't work well for LOL). Are games with #1 simply more boring or less thrilling?

Perhaps it may be an avenue LOL may take in one of their custom games (Like the Dominion)?


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Cyrad

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlSagansCosmos View Post
Honest question, and I'm sincerely curious, why is snowballing necessary at any point? I love my sports as much as the next guy, and except for more points and "being on fire", sports really don't punish the losers more and gift the winners more. I am very appreciative that you don't think it should snowball harder but has there ever been talk of removing generally the snowball effect all together, with to keep a game from lasting forever, degenerating tower/inhibitor system? Has something like this been tried in other games and they failed, or discussion of why not to to model them closer to RL sports?
This article explains why.

Snowballing (called "Positive Feedback" in the article) helps games stir towards a conclusion. Otherwise, the game would stalemate.

Sports games don't need snowballing because they have time limits. Imagine if American football had no time limit -- whichever team with 40 points wins the game. A game with two closely matched teams would take ages to complete.

LoL with no snowballing wouldn't be very fun. If each team always had a 50% chance to win a fight, backdooring and split-pushing would dominate the meta. If you weren't rewarded with gold for killing, then playing safe and farming all game would always be a better strategy than killing your lane.

Edit: Zileas beat me to it! Foiled by the ninja game designer!


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Dragull2

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Now, I don't like this "dota has this, that is bad and lol has this that is good" and vice-versa conversation.
Both games have their advantages and disadvantages. For example, one thing I HATE in Dota is the turning speed, way too annoying.
But regardless, there is one design philosophy that bothers me in League a LOT:

Quote:
Also in Dota, towers don't protect you. You protect the towers and when they fall they give ****loads of gold. So early pushing strats work! And the counterplay is to get strong teamfight heroes coz naturally tower pushing comps are weaker in all out fights.
Why the hell are turrets so strong ins league???????????

All it does is provide a PASSIVE GAMEPLAY.

Thats the main reason laning is a lot more fun in Dota than in League.
If you wanna kill the enemy, you dive and kill him. You can't hide behind it like a fking p ussy.


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Iohet

Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Yes, Poppy needs a rework. The live team is aware, and we will be accelerating our rate of remakes. I don't know when we will get to Poppy specifically, but you are totally correct that she needs a variety of tweaks and overhauls.
No counterplay? Sure she has counterplay. It's called terrain deformation. Just like for Kayle and Olaf. Just like how there are a million champs that counter terrain deformation, none of those do, creating counterplay.


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VaIse

Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaitreCorbo View Post
Health counters true damage
The mechanic of true damage, in respect to counter play, is something I was hoping would be discussed in this thread. I would not call health a counter to true damage. You are not changing the cause and effect in any regard by building health. The damage received is still the same, you're just subtracting it from a higher number.

The characters capable of true damage are very strong for this reason, and I don't see much counter-play to it, in the game's current state, unless the true damage-dealing ability itself allows for it. I like, for example, how Vayne needs to have 3 consecutive AA's for silver bolts (and therefore the true damage) to trigger; it may give her "tons of damage", but she needs those consecutive attacks to max her potential, making her behavior a bit more predictable, giving additional cues to the opposition in the chaos of team-fights, etc. So, she may be a deadly hyper-carry, but the true damage seems fine in the way that it's implemented on her design.

Irelia, however, has an auto-attack true damage buff with Hiten Style. Combined with her innate sustain, gap-closing, CC, and CC reduction, she can afford to build very tanky and still take out your back line. It's in this manner that true damage seems implemented in a poor way. I agree with Zileas that Irelia is a very cool character in presentation, but her kit is just too strong (in fact it may be perfect...she has everything); I imagine it makes her hard to balance, and I'm guessing it's why she's had so many tweaks (hence the "better nerf Irelia" meme).


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Koechophe

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Senior Member

11-23-2012

Zileas, (And this is an honest question) how do you add counterplay to range? In top lane, you can almost just run a mid lane mage and win the lane, because of the heavy ranged poke. Ranged adc is MUCH better than melee adc, and melee adc is almost not even viable at this point. What is the counter play to range at this point?