@Zileas - Counter Play

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Sinbu

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackalHalfdragon View Post
And the infamus Invoker, who in his original form had no less than 27 spells (he's been since nerfed to "only" 9 or so, I think) but a good player only ever uses the 2-3 most overpowered of them. "Burden of Knowlege" is the opponent's need to learn counterplay for 9 different spells just to play against them- Xypherous has said much on this topic.
But the ability for a champion with that many options to have an answer for everything itself reduces counterplay, because he has an answer to your answer, and an answer to anything you would try next- a less obvous but no less real example of False Choice, where there is no right answers.
Just fyi, as an invoker player, I use in every fight usually 9 out of the 10 spells. It's true that at the beginning of the game you limit that to maybe 3-4, but its different depending on how you want to play him (support, carry, initiater, etc). That's what makes invoker extremely fun to play... they took the 27 spells that Guinsoo invented and only made it 10 useful spells

I would KILL for a champion in League that is as diverse as invoker. Kha'Zix was a bit of a disappointment, mostly since he's outshined by any player who's smart enough to stick to a teammate or minion


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Sinbu

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
BKB on the other hand takes a bunch of partial counters to your carry (various ccs and nukes), and negates them, leaving a much narrower field of responses available. The ACT of BKB is satisfying, and it presents a 'counter' to the things that would counter the carry using it, but I would argue that a rich network of soft counters is more interesting than coming to a head of 'hard counter vs hard counter'.

- Zileas
I appreciate your analysis on BKB, and I agree on all your points. As you mentioned, there are a few hard counters to such things (like Primal Roar or Enigma's Blackhole). Therefore I'm lead to believe that this is a consideration you need to take when choosing and banning heros. My conclusion is that LoL to me is extremely fun as a casual gamer, but with the limited items (S3 may help) and current "Counterplay", LoL is not interesting to me competitively, while Dota is interesting from the teampick onward.

Going beyond the scope of this conversation, I love LoL, but its never going to allow me to let me show off my skill to others. When I see someone on a stream for LoL, I always think "Well looks like he can consistently last hit." Except for Scarra and TiensiNoAkuma, I am never impressed with the plays because there are so few that require more decision making than spamming spells.

In Dota, I am constantly amazing by the clutch plays and variable factors of teammates using stills to manipulate their team (pudge), active items that empower and customize all heros (shadow blade, refresher orb), or simply being so powerful as a support early game (Rhasta).

Anyways, as I said, I play both games and enjoy both, but I wonder what you guys are going to do. I hope you make more actives on items, and empower the player more to make more impressive plays. You don't have to listen to me, you already have a huge following, but I thought I'd give my input


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Dragoonix

Senior Member

11-22-2012

nice to see my favorite red troll on his serious topics. I have never played dota and originally wanted to. But one look at BKB (along with some other gameplay and stuff) made me think its simply not worth my time.

To hear rioters talking good game design and counter play whilst pooping all over that design monstrosity is a burst of sunshine in a cold dark world. The hate on my Vlad pool sucks, but I suppose I can see it, it's one of the abilities I scoffed at when it was first released and I didn't start up my love affair w/ Vlad till many nerfs later.

I swear I should have an inside ear to Riot, the second I found out about ezreal's E having an AS slow, I knew he was broken. That was like 5 months ago probably, if not more.

Would be curious to hear what take riot has on FH, honestly that's a broken item in my books, not only is it insanely good on anyone who can use the mana, it has no counter play as far as I can tell, AS slows in general are a glaring issue I think (knock ups probably need a look too) but they are basically the be all end all answer to AD's exponential damage scaling.


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Lazreal

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
At first I thought this thread was about how to counterplay Zileas himself.

Then I came in here and I was like.. oh.. math and stuff.

Its Mathmatical

I got a simple suggestion guys, can you add to the in client character info, better and more direct counterplay suggestions. For Darius as the example, Put Kayle's Ult, Zonya's, Gaurdian Angel, Range and Kiting.

For Vladimir, you can suggest any or all the greavious wounds options and Fizz Counters him pretty hard aswell, which I don't know why people don't relieze.

Adding stuff that's more direct can help the ones that can't seem to deal with "said" champions.

Hope it helps


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pramit the great

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
At first I thought this thread was about how to counterplay Zileas himself.

Then I came in here and I was like.. oh.. math and stuff.
best counterplay measure against leona?


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Apollinarius

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel the Dragon View Post
@Zileas I'm semi-curious how you feel about Blitz Q, I know there is a counter to it, (dodge it) but its still one of the single most unfun things to play against(in my personal opinion) and in every draft and ranked game I've ever played blitz is either banned or picked.(I will admit I have not been above 1200 elo ever, I dont play much ranked) Is this an example of a bad mechanic? i mean there is no feeling of goodness for a person getting hooked because over half the time(95% of the time) getting hooked = dying and is purely satisfactory for the blitz player himself.
Honestly, I would trade Blitz Q for Morgana Q any day of the week. I play a lot of Blitz (I'm one of those who first pick him ) and I had an almost 100% winrate with him in S2 (the only loss was due to unruned ADC and getting counterpicked by Morg support).

Blitz hook is a double edged sword, which is why I almost never use it to initiate fights. It is a great chasing tool , but again, Morgana Q does it better 90% of the time.

The counter to Blitz is Morgana. Lux is an ok substitute if Morg is banned. Every time he gets a clear shot for his hook, that means you have a clear shot for your bind. Provided your ADC is even remotely aware of what's going on, the damage dealt to Blitz during the bind will discourage him from trying again. His only option remains his E (which is his best skill and is the reason I ban him when I can't play him) which he won't ever land because of Black Shield and bind when he gets close.


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Lazreal

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramit the great View Post
best counterplay measure against leona?
Morgana Black Shield


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Apollinarius

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
I'd point out though that the very lack of existence of BKB also completely negates and screws over an entire category and archetype of characters in LoL--the melee carry--In its current state the melee carry (in LoL) is the easiest thing to counter, in the game--see him in champ select? Just pick one more exhaust and he's done (I realize exhaust's potential has been cut down a bit, but at the same time too,it now has an added AS debuff on it, so I'm not sure it's really any better...not to mention just the MS slow is often enough to negate you).

There's also just plain hard CC and their ultra-susceptibility to burst and/or AoE damage, which makes it night impossible in even semi-organized play for them to go in and do their job at all.

I really doubt Mercurial scimitar will really address this, either---it does give some survivability against this AoE and provides a nice negation of one point of CC, but you still have the problem of (1) the next CC (2) Ranged carry vs melee carry.

The Ranged carry will build IE+PD and be completely fine because they're...well, ranged and stay safe. The melee carry has better base damage, usually, and steroids---the problem is, crit is just so strong that PD+IE will still out-damage PD+Scimitar, even with melee carries increased base damage.

So even with scimitar and the exhaust changes, I don't see anything changing for this class---why should I pick a melee carry over ranged (or at all) when ranged has vastly superior survivability and still has superior DPS?

Furthermore, there's going to be vastly more kiting items in S3 (Shard of True Ice, Frozen Fist, Blade of the Ruined King) and more AoE damage from bruisers/ranged carries (Hydra/Tiamat and Shiv/Hurricane) that this hurts their ability to "get in there" even more and gets them burnt down even faster.

I just think it's kinda sad that this entire archetype is completely unviable and absent from LoL and totally neglected; it's extremely frustrating. =/
I've had a decent amount of success in normals playing Fiora and Tryndamere.

Fiora's strength is her multiple gap closers and her truly insane AS steroid. I rush Trinity Force on Fiora because, tons of damage. Seriously. She gets so many Sheen procs that she's a monster during lane phase and small fights (3v3 or fewer). Once the game ramps up to bigger fights, you have to play like Katarina. You don't rush in first unless you have a GA. You wait for someone else to initiate (Malphite ult/Orianna ult are great here) and then you jump in. Once it gets hairy, cast your ultimate. You will get kills, which will refresh your insane damage, which will get you more kills. Always run Clarity on Fiora because QSS isn't worth building, and Exausts are the only thing that can stop you.

Tryndamere's strength is how cheap his full build is. This means that he can jungle and get to a very strong build in the same time that a top lane Irelia or ADC is getting their full build. This will change in S3 because IE is getting more expensive and Executioner's Calling (Tryndamere's favorite item) loses lifesteal. In S2 though, Trynd's "tons of damage" build is boots 1, PD and Executioner's. After that, you get LW to GA to IE, but just PD and Executioner's are enough for you to be able to destroy in teamfights. Your W is the most amazing skill ever.

For the moment, S3 looks like a complete mess to me, so I'll wait until it's been out for a couple of months and at least one tournament has been played with S3 changes before making my judgement on how melee carries look there. I have a strong suspicion that ranged carries will become completely different from how they are now (no more laning for ranged AD).


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Kneon

Senior Member

11-22-2012

what a cool video, and a great job by Zileas. I'm a little discouraged though because i feel like League allows less and less counterplay. too often lane matchups feel determined by the champions the players chose (more of an issue in blind-pick) than a players skill.

i think itemization wise League does a great job with this, and there's items for almost every situation, but champion design wise League is getting worse with counterplay, with too many situations (oh great he's Yorick and im ______) where champion choice overrides skill differential in all but extreme circumstances.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-22-2012
16 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinbu View Post
I appreciate your analysis on BKB, and I agree on all your points. As you mentioned, there are a few hard counters to such things (like Primal Roar or Enigma's Blackhole). Therefore I'm lead to believe that this is a consideration you need to take when choosing and banning heros. My conclusion is that LoL to me is extremely fun as a casual gamer, but with the limited items (S3 may help) and current "Counterplay", LoL is not interesting to me competitively, while Dota is interesting from the teampick onward.
I would direct people to the video of course:
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/counter-play

However, one area in which dota and LoL differ a lot, and an area we've spent a lot of effort trying to evolve the genre, is on the idea of hard counters and on the richness of said counters. Put simply, we think that soft counters are good, hard counters are bad, and the execution of a counter should be nuanced and skill differentiated -- simply choosing to use a counter in our view should only be a small fraction of skill. Flash is more interesting than exhaust on this basis, as an example.

People often make the mistake that all counters are created equal, and indeed, that all counters are POSITIVE. Many types of counters, especially hard counters, can make the game less competitive and strategic despite being 'strategic' in their initial use. When you hear the 'counter to the counter' being something along the lines of "You shouldn't have let them get into that farm status", or "you should've counterpicked a different champion", you have a play balance problem, not 'strategy'. When we see these, we make changes to fix them.

The type of counter we like the least of all is a hard counter. Hard counters, by their definition, allow for very limited counterplay. In some sense, they are a pre-planned rock-paper-scissors scenario -- I am now playing rock, you have scissors, so you lose. This happens with a lot more frequency in DOTA lane matchups and in item purchase decisions, and we sought to reduce these in evolving the genre. To be fair, we have a few ourselves, but we want to get rid of them.

When you have a hard counter, and by extension, a rock-paper-scissors scenario, you've eliminated the potential for further skill differentiate, nuance, etc to occur in the response. In short, while it feels satisfying to have a hard counter, there's not a challenging, interesting game to be played on the receiving end at that point. Soft counters are better because they confer advantage and reward skill on the aggressor side also, but depend heavily upon execution, and thus, are more competitive and more vulnerable to defender interference via skill..

The other counter type, that is a lot more subtle, but also bad, is the type of counter that undermines the rest of the game through reducing the efficacy (and thus potential for skill differentiation/nuance) of other counters too much. For example, when a champion has too many escapes to the point where they lack vulnerability, that's a counter set that removes the ability for others to formulate an effective strategy against it with their abilities in most cases. This may not be perceived as a hard counter, but it's also bad.