@Tryndamere @Ryze @Morello Final Pre-season Feedback

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Boku Girl

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Was OK until I saw you ranting about Zileas's 'racism'.


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Eserine

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mid Kat Only View Post
Was OK until I saw you ranting about Zileas's 'racism'.
The formal term for what I accuse Zileas of is the "False Consensus Effect", which his specific life experiences have predisposed him toward in deciding who he thinks is writing with sincerity and who is just putting on a show, and whether that even merits consideration when weighing punishment against those practicing hate speech, in singling out negative usernames of players on the forums he has certainly done more than many other posters from the company to stem problematic behaviors...


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End of Shadows

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Ok ok ok, I will only address the first part briefly because if I linger to long I will have a block of text ten times bigger of just outright critique and opinion. First and foremost, you start your argument stating that the head of the lore office needs to be removed and begin citing examples out of context, giving your own take, and why that is bad.

First and foremost, if you are saying ANYTHING on that big of a scale and hope to even be taken half way seriously, you need to prove you are not a blabbering idiot without any idea of what he is actually talking about. These things include, but are not limited to: being a large scale fantasy author, having extensively studied (to the point of being able to write a masters thesis on the subject) of character design and story telling, or barring all that, being able to quote people who do have that stuff, because to convince someone, you have to prove you have some knowledge of what you are talking about.

Secondly, you draw conclusions that are situational at best,

Quote:
The action of LoL is focused through a narrative, to allow for the playing audience to have "suspension of disbelief". The human brain loves to spot patterns and explain what is happening around it, so a coherent story is very necessary for the initial adoption of the practice of play immersion into any game, which then naturally leads to playing 30 hours a week. Art and animation team members have widely discussed with players in the past trying to capture unique personality features or interactions between characters purely through non-written design decisions, and this all adds to a narrative that Kitae doesn't seem to be aware of existentially.
I can easily disagree with this, personally I have never seen LoL as a lore driven game, hell when I started, I didn't even think there was lore behind this, it took about 2 months before finding it out and spending a week on the wiki site to have a decent understanding. So to mention this, and have it proved, you need to provide a source, such as a rioter saying that the lore is important, or statistical evidence of such, I can easily say the exact opposite, but for this genre of gaming, you would need specific sources or it just won't work. I could quote college professors saying the story of a game makes it, yet there are SO many non-story based games that hit it big, take a look at any early arcade game, yet if you go into RPGs with no story, chances are it will fail. Thus different genres don't follow the same rules, so to prove it, you would need some major source saying what you are saying for either (any management head or developer would fit best), thus either LoL, HoN or Dota. Find something before you just say it, or anyone that disagrees with you has just as much say.

Quote:
Do you notice that Kitae doesn't cite BOOK CHARACTERS when discussing LoL? For me, together with how she writes on the forums, this holds a deep and unsettling significance. Matthew Weiner (the creator of these two shows) is noted by critics to utilize shallow s.ex and violence as a vehicle for the protagonist's ultimate self-realization, punctuated regularly by ambiguous scenes of interpretive emotionality like staring into a duck pond where viewers can then superimpose their own emotional inputs ("A Wonder Years knockoff where the character is forced to change while the country changes around him"). I have never seen either of these programs but I recognize the elements of 'transformative defining-moment character-building', as Kitae proposes it, just as much in the lackluster Katarina and Warwick lore rewrites, cheap, wooden titillation over substance or meaningful storybuilding
While I did just cover this point, (good job on using quote to defend argument though) the fact that I got that he decided to mention something more mainstream that people would know better shows that he is trying to communicate better. For all we know he could launch off people such as Kurtz, Gatsby, Drizzt, Kyler Stern, Kvothe, and dozens of others, the very fact that he is the head of the lore department means that chances are he knows each of those characters and can commentate on those. The fact that you brought it up shows that your hatred of his work is so deeply embedded in your argument that you begin to assume. "It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment."-Sherlock Holmes

My issue with this isn't that I like or dislike Kitae, its that you want him gone and prove nothing to someone who disagrees. What you proved is you don't like his work, which sorry to say, isn't enough to remove his position.


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Feird

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandollor View Post
You've put into words how many of us have felt, but either lack the ability to write so eloquently or in my case lack of faith in the community for caring. So far it looks like my fear was correct. Generally people don't see things that happen in the context of online video games or sometimes even just online as holding any real signification until someone commits suicide over cyber bullying or someone is murdered because of what they said about a certain Prophet, but even then I will assume most in this community will just say good riddance or lol or what have you.

The very fact that something like TL;DR even exists is a sad reminder of our culture, predominately our youth today and I am sorry that for all your effort few may read your post.

We await a red response; I also will guess that the red response will be a quip filled post to as to relieve some tension and win over some hearts and minds.
tl;dr


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Eserine

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by End of Shadows View Post
Ok ok ok, I will only address the first part briefly because if I linger to long I will have a block of text ten times bigger of just outright critique and opinion. First and foremost, you start your argument stating that the head of the lore office needs to be removed and begin citing examples out of context, giving your own take, and why that is bad.

First and foremost, if you are saying ANYTHING on that big of a scale and hope to even be taken half way seriously, you need to prove you are not a blabbering idiot without any idea of what he is actually talking about. These things include, but are not limited to: being a large scale fantasy author, having extensively studied (to the point of being able to write a masters thesis on the subject) of character design and story telling, or barring all that, being able to quote people who do have that stuff, because to convince someone, you have to prove you have some knowledge of what you are talking about.
The expertise I instead rely on is the past experiences of the leaders of Riot as they read my arguments, if what I have written matches their memories and ideas and goals then I do not need to lean on a self-important title to put forward my reasoning as anything more than a customer of theirs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by End of Shadows View Post

Secondly, you draw conclusions that are situational at best,
Quote:
The action of LoL is focused through a narrative, to allow for the playing audience to have "suspension of disbelief". The human brain loves to spot patterns and explain what is happening around it, so a coherent story is very necessary for the initial adoption of the practice of play immersion into any game, which then naturally leads to playing 30 hours a week. Art and animation team members have widely discussed with players in the past trying to capture unique personality features or interactions between characters purely through non-written design decisions, and this all adds to a narrative that Kitae doesn't seem to be aware of existentially.
I can easily disagree with this, personally I have never seen LoL as a lore driven game, hell when I started, I didn't even think there was lore behind this, it took about 2 months before finding it out and spending a week on the wiki site to have a decent understanding. So to mention this, and have it proved, you need to provide a source, such as a rioter saying that the lore is important, or statistical evidence of such, I can easily say the exact opposite, but for this genre of gaming, you would need specific sources or it just won't work. I could quote college professors saying the story of a game makes it, yet there are SO many non-story based games that hit it big, take a look at any early arcade game, yet if you go into RPGs with no story, chances are it will fail. Thus different genres don't follow the same rules, so to prove it, you would need some major source saying what you are saying for either (any management head or developer would fit best), thus either LoL, HoN or Dota. Find something before you just say it, or anyone that disagrees with you has just as much say.
I write these recommendations under the assumption that Brandon Beck and Marc Merrill and Morello and Zileas and Griftrix and Kitae have used the forums long enough to have been present when these subjects were initially discussed through various threads in the past year, or sat through creative meetings over much the same. I could, with a great deal of time and effort, dig through the earliest months of the Dev Tracker page by page looking for the examples that would surely be there in discussing what we might term "narrative frameability" within separate aspects of the game design, from the believability of sound effects to palette color choices to the physics engine and the running animation skew and the character features all collaborating to create a single immersive experience, but they likely already know what I am talking about in these terms. You began looking for lore after two months and then spent an entire week on the lore wiki because you were curious to learn more about the gameworld, had the lore been effectively present and functional instead of being concealed from players by department inactivity you would have found it sooner. Had you read this wiki only to find that the lore seemed to have been written by a 4th grader would it have hampered your enjoyment of the wider game? Indeed it would, and this would make you and most other players willing to quit after finding more difficulty in framing the "epic" nature of their efforts in the ensuing weeks or months, and as a player you would be less perceptually shielded from the repetitive grind of making a number go up slightly in what is called "a suppression response" (as opposed to "flow").

Arcade games (or perhaps as a better example Minecraft) allow the user to easily form their own narratives from the raw elements of the game, but this does not easily occur in contexts where dissonant and contradictive elements are frequently introduced (like a spider-lady seemingly wearing latex who defies ones working assumptions of the narrative), or in contexts where there is already a story to explain the world, no matter how terrible it is (no one writes alternative fanfiction that contradicts every core presuposition and feature of a world's given storyline)

This means that both having bad lore, and having no lore would be negative in terms of LoL, though fans would still attempt to adapt new champions coming out into their own pet theory scenarios and may do a much better job of it than the current lore team

Quote:
Originally Posted by End of Shadows View Post
While I did just cover this point, (good job on using quote to defend argument though) the fact that I got that he decided to mention something more mainstream that people would know better shows that he is trying to communicate better. For all we know he could launch off people such as Kurtz, Gatsby, Drizzt, Kyler Stern, Kvothe, and dozens of others, the very fact that he is the head of the lore department means that chances are he knows each of those characters and can commentate on those. The fact that you brought it up shows that your hatred of his work is so deeply embedded in your argument that you begin to assume. "It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment."-Sherlock Holmes

My issue with this isn't that I like or dislike Kitae, its that you want him gone and prove nothing to someone who disagrees. What you proved is you don't like his work, which sorry to say, isn't enough to remove his position.
I have collected evidence and tried to present it to the best of my abilities (for example, the fact that Kitae is a female named Christina Norman). I have read what the lore team has produced and there are no elements stylistically reading of Salvatore, Fitzgerald, Weeks, or Rothfuss, except maybe that they utilize English to speak to their readers. "the very fact that [s]he is the head of the lore department" does NOT mean that "chances are [s]he knows each of those characters" (nor doth her Twitter feed overflow with literary references), although she obviously is well-read in terms of niche AMC television programming and anime soap opera knockoffs.


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Eserine

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feird View Post
Quote:
You've put into words how many of us have felt, but either lack the ability to write so eloquently or in my case lack of faith in the community for caring. So far it looks like my fear was correct. Generally people don't see things that happen in the context of online video games or sometimes even just online as holding any real signification until someone commits suicide over cyber bullying or someone is murdered because of what they said about a certain Prophet, but even then I will assume most in this community will just say good riddance or lol or what have you.

The very fact that something like TL;DR even exists is a sad reminder of our culture, predominately our youth today and I am sorry that for all your effort few may read your post.

We await a red response; I also will guess that the red response will be a quip filled post to as to relieve some tension and win over some hearts and minds.
tl;dr

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...stupid/306868/

Maryanne Wolf wrote directly of this effect, and Kitae is a primary agent in its adoption in the way she has chosen to bring the story forward, in watching her write one wonders if she herself still possesses the ability to read texts beyond simply skimming them any more, in her tenure at Riot she has formed an environment of creativity as contemplative and detailed as the TV board room where terrible "Saturday Night Live" sketches are brought to life every week.

For those on the outside it is a bit like watching someone try to eat a cup of watery yogurt with chopsticks. Wouldn't it be horrible if Nexon owned LoL? Everyone seems to agree until the lore is brought up on page three.

To "qualitatively demonstrate that I am not just a crazy person" I will now point out, with "criticism" and not "blind accusation", the substandard nature of a recent lore alteration, the new biography of Mordekaiser (I leave it to you to judge for yourself whether this effort is worthy of the game):

Quote:
"Fear is confusion, pain is clarity."

- Mordekaiser

Mordekaiser is a being of pure, living agony on a mysterious dread quest. It is said that he was the first of the undead, existing before the Shadow Isles were a whispered threat. His true name and past lost to history, Mordekaiser is feared for his grim manipulation of pain –both his own, and that of others. Anguish fuels and sustains him, serving as his last connection to life, as well as his most effective weapon. In his enigmatic hunt, he's proven no one is safe, for even the most courageous souls have surrendered their secrets in his grasp.

One girl witnessed and survived an encounter with pain's paladin. Late one night, the young mage-in-training was awoken by the sound of her master's tortured screams. Overcoming her fear, she charged into the library to find it a shattered ruin. There, she saw a hulking figure clad in a suit of armor that seemed fused to his body. It was clear the grim intruder was looking for something, and was displeased with the results. At the center of the once-majestic chamber, the armored fiend clutched her teacher's broken form. She overheard her master's final words – that he would die before he would give up his secrets. Mordekaiser laughed and said that even death was no escape, then snapped the master's neck with a sharp crack. Moments later, the horrified girl witnessed her master's spirit torn from his body. As if under some dark compulsion, the shade began to reveal all to his torturer and executioner. The girl fled, living to tell her story – should Mordekaiser come for you, even death itself will not keep you from his iron reach.
Syndra's lore, Zed's lore, and Mordekaiser's lore now all prominently feature the plot of murder of the single parent and teacher figure of a character through magical or mysterious means. Unoriginality déjà vu!

but there are further troubling aspects of bad writing contained within the actual storyline:

The "enigmatic hunt" of Mordekaiser is easily clarified with further information not given to the reader. Even unschooled medieval peasants upon hearing that a local practitioner of the occult had been slain for his knowledge would think to ask themselves "What sort of magic did this sorcerer practice again? Was he good at making things burst into flame, or did he have magical healing abilities, what specializations did he demonstrate mastery of in his time living near our residences in a structure with a large library in it?" If no one knew or there were too many likely fields of study (which doesn't mesh with the magical champions of the League all having distinct and very narrow specialties) they have a living witness to interview, which we know she was not to traumatized for because it is related that she went on "living to tell her story", and she literally witnessed her master revealing the secret information that somehow now escapes importance. Thus the tale of Mordekaiser is told by a strange sort of 'unreliable narrator'; 'the totally stupid narrator who is unfamiliar with relevant facts and incapable of logical inference'.

but then, is Mordekaiser's "secret knowledge questing" really enigmatic at all? The new lore begins with a quote by Mordekaiser announcing that he equates pain with clarity, and then the lines "Mordekaiser is a being of pure, living agony" and "Anguish fuels and sustains him". What, if he is pure agony, could he be searching for beyond that which the narration says fuels and sustains him? An end to the agony? That would seem to suggest that he is more then simply the embodiment of agony, which the story directly contradicts!

Next we have the problem of heroism. Mordekaiser is blatantly running through the countyside indiscriminately slaying innocent magic-users and leaving living witnesses to bear testament to his actions ("even the most courageous souls have surrendered their secrets in his grasp.") It is incumbent upon all persons of noble or self-interested character to stop him from doing this within the very fiber of their character, yet the writers seem to have forgotten that other champion-level powers exist while writing this. Our narrator once again makes no note of resistance to Mordekaiser's actions, and this would seem like something highly worth mentioning or keeping as a note within one's internal dialog in terms of Mordekaiser's background.

Next we have the line "As if under some dark compulsion the shade began to reveal all to his torturer and executioner.". As if? Under a dark compulsion the shade began to reveal information, "some dark compulsion" is not a metaphor for the shade's actions somehow, unless Mordekaiser is thematically divorced from the abilities he presents in-game where he enslaves the souls of the fallen to do his bidding.

I'm annoyed that I even have to write these problems down, if Riot were serious about engaging players and the quality of their craftsmanship (awesomeness) this garbage would never mar the product put before the world. If I, as someone who has no experience writing or editing professionally, can note these serious discrepancies together with a multitude of other players, then can't the people who pay Kitae's salary? Why wouldn't they care?

I expect some will challenge the idea that I am suggesting that the lore team (if it is sagely replaced with new members) should work in isolated and silent caves deep below Riot headquarters, immersing themselves into the world they are creating by surrounding themselves with ancient artifacts, forced to wear coarse linen robes and to navigate only by candlelight only to emerge for fieldtrips to desolate castles and the odd Christmas party, but in its closest approximation I see this as the only way to fix the process as it currently lies perverted. Riot tours by press and interviewers praise the tightly-packed workspaces optimizing inter-party communication and "running into one another to chat". "Even the co-founders work in open offices out on the floors!" Unfortunately this also presents a great deal of ambient visual and auditory chaos (easily seen and heard even in short video clips) which once again science disputes as being helpful to many aspects of game design. This is a matter of the wrong people working on the wrong things in the wrong environment.

Lastly, the effects on the world of bad lore in a mega-hit game spells further universal decline in reading ability and reading comprehension on virtually all tests in regions of internet adoption (as noted as already serious by Dana Gioia during his tenure at the head of the N.E.A. in the U.S.). Young high-frequency players will successfully avoid "blocks of text" (or dare-I-say anything well-written) thanks to the continuing efforts of Kitae (and I guess those other Riot members who have chosen not to participate in or pay attention to this thread).


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Eserine

Senior Member

11-21-2012

All the criticism that seems to remain is the "who really cares about this?" question repeated multiple times.

In terms of the lore there are many posts and players relating dissatisfaction, both in threads previously referenced by me and unreferenced:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane Azmadi View Post
I honestly don't care what Riot says they're "trying to do" with LoL's story any more. Words are cheap, at least when making excuses. 'Cause what they're ACTUALLY doing with the story is absolutely jack-sh*t nothing (except changing stuff that already exists for the worse).

Seriously, I've given up on LoL's lore. It was actually really good and interesting with champion judgements, the Journal of Justice and all that, but in their desire to "do better" Riot have completely and utterly dropped the ball. Seriously, the once-great lore is now nothing better than a farcical joke. You hear me, Riot? It's a joke!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vongeo View Post
I wish I had time to post one of these great detailed Critique, but I am too busy to do anything but bump and say, the new lore makes me want to quit. League in its Gameplay and lore used to be a huge big mystery to me and it was kind of a mental adventure. Then I progressively learned more and more of the world and that was intense, but now I don't even want to. Like all I've ever loved its falling into the appeal of the masses. Things all variations that I know someday, unless I quit I'll be forced to settle and decide things weren't that great back in the day, and this new stuff, the new stuff I started out despising It's not so horrible.


It will still be as horrible, I'll just appease myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDancingDead View Post
Re-instate a decent Lore department and bring back the Journal of Justice.

: /
etc. etc. etc.

In terms of Player Behavior and Justice, specifically of prevalent issues of Riot's inadequate response to racism, the Tribunal and PB&J department were formed both reflecting player assessments of the game's shortcomings and in-house analysis by the developers as they played. It has been viewed as a very important factor in retention of players and removal of toxic elements. The difficulty then moving forward however is Riot's lack of empathy with their players in 1. their likely reluctance to call out their co-workers or see themselves as being insensitive to the issue 2. Undergoing the horror of a comprehensive in-work corporate sensitivity course 3. The work it would entail to address the problems online (especially in non-English servers with rampant lawlessness) 4. Banning out lots of people who spend money who hide behind friends within the game but reveal their true nature on the forums

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysergik View Post
Ok I was playing a normal 5v5 and in the pregame lobby one of our teammates said some things that could be described as distasteful towards members of a specific race. When the game started I muted that player and asked on all chat for that player to be reported. Apparently everyone else on my team was premade with that player and started asking if I was a member of that specific race and typed in distasteful "slurs". They also all reported me apparently. I think Riot truly dropped the ball with the tribunal system, it is clearly broken.

I admit that I am guilty of using hard language from time to time. I even call teammates feeders when they feed. I may sometimes get reported by people who should be reported for breaking the summoner's code. Which I believe no one responding to this thread read anyway, it's like one of those user agreements you just scroll to the bottom of.

In closing I expect to be warned or suspended for maybe some legitimate offensive language reports, but the majority of the things I have been reported for are likely spiteful players who hide behind their friends to make their racist comments seem acceptable, or players who played poorly and need to lash out at their accusers.
A common solution proposed by myself and many other players is to crowdsource forum moderation much like game moderation, have a little "mushroom cloud" button next to the voting thumbs and have that close threads instead of downvotes for ideas that may just be sort of unpopular. If a summoner on the forum violates the summoner's code or user agreements they should be reported with the mushroom cloud and brought before the Tribunal for judgement, and mechanisms should also be built-in for those who might abuse the forum report button (which could lead to both a clarification prompt for users or a second menu of reportable offenses much like the User Interface report menu). After a year of requesting this however Riot has only given the response that "this is not a priority", perhaps because it may endanger the current jobs of co-workers and friends, but these individuals would still be needed to study the efficacy of the system in many respects and also continue their work in other capacities within the wider LoL system (such as speeding up the permanent ban review process or personally going through lower-level reports than permabans, or hunting in-game for abusers like bounty hunters, or any number of new projects designed around further curtailment of toxicity).

Finally, in claiming that no one cares about adding more racial diversity in the champion roster, any high-frequency forum-user can attest to the constant (and some even say exasperating) avalanche of players writing in to ask why there are only human champions of white and Asian likeness.

Though each tired argument against the idea is regularly overturned by proponents of better racial representation, the forums (designed for Riot's interaction with the community) usually insta-close these threads to prevent dialog from taking place, often with overt racism and the same stupid justifications that obviously hold no value ("There can't be champions of likeness to ethnicities such as Black, Hispanic, or Native Americans in the game because there is no geological focal point for the development of such groups, but on the other hand Riot inventing races of mermaid people or crystal scorpions or bears with armor or Atlantican fishmen out of nowhere is non-analogous...").

A few examples from the past few days (noting constancy of topic):

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2821597
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2821647
(+12) http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2817011
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1721688
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2820671


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Eserine

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Issue four: Riot now reserves the ability to sell your information to 3rd parties who can then target you in or out of game with marketing based on how popular or easy-to-identify you are:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
My worry with this change is that 3rd party non-game-industry retailers will have the ability to use the game as a viral marketing platform/test lab and data mining operation if "player interactions" include vocabulary and conversation analytics:

"Does player '501337' enjoy the refreshing taste of Pepsi? Let's audit his records from Riot then isolate his identity with a scanning algorithm to parse in-game references to his location and social-network correlations and then send him lots of e-mails based on his generated demographic profile and popularity within the community! If he doesn't answer we can have marketing reps. form new accounts and friend-request him to play some games while talking about our product! Yaaaaay!"

I'm aware that this might be the real reason that you are changing the agreement (as the passage in the text is vague and doesn't specify or even mention Riot's ability to sell such information for profit), I am just informing other players who might read this comment of the potential ramifications. I found your legal immunity alterations quite disturbing:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2652320
Indeed when combined with the previous policy update things do not look good:

Quote:
We want to understand where new League of Legends players are coming from, so we’re gonna make use of more 3rd party cookies as well as tracking pixels, and the updated policy reflects this.


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Lysergik

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Hey can you delete where you quoted me. You used what I posted completely out of context. SAGE THIS THREAD


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Eserine

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysergik View Post
Hey can you delete where you quoted me. You used what I posted completely out of context. SAGE THIS THREAD

I'm afraid that I don't understand your request.

In your thread you wished to draw attention to problems with Riot's current way of running The Tribunal in punishing or pardoning the wrong people (as do I) and then I even posted this thread's address within your thread (even coming back to tell you where your post was) so that you could clarify any contextual disparities with which you felt I used your story, although it really speaks for itself. Anyone can also follow the blue arrow above the text box to read your full thread, although I did not abridge your original post at all and your distaste with The Tribunal comes through quite clearly.

My point in this thread (which you may have misunderstood) is that the racist jerks that you encountered in-game were using a strategy to attempt remove players who spoke out against racism, and that if we had the ability to report racism within the forums it might eliminate those jerks because they could not likewise carry out the same bigotry (as they frequently do) without hundreds of reports all at once from players, thus protecting players like you from getting attacked by them by giving you and others unfair reports.

I am also discussing how the Tribunal works in your thread in an ongoing conversation, since your point about self-defense seems based on an easy misunderstanding to make about report thresholds which I once also shared before getting further clarification from the Tribunal team while reading their discussions with raging perma-banned players.

Your use of indicative slang might suggest further difficulties in communicating with you however. In any case as you have not yet been punished I wish you luck if you are actually innocent (and you can always write-in a support ticket, they appear to unblock anyone no matter how foul their ideals or actions are as I previously referenced in mentioning wrist-slapping).


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