@Zileas - Counter Play

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Ocuses

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

Originally, for example, Darius had to get 10 stacks - something almost impossible, before his ult did anything crazy. When we got feedback about people not enjoying that, we overtuned the stack reliance back and made things less interactive, and ultimately weakening Darius' design. I'd like to go back and make it more like this when we have the time.
So how would making you need 5 stacks do and the killing blow do?


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Murder Duck

Member

11-21-2012

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Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Not entirely.

Darius ult actually has some amount of counterplay because you can outrange it. There is some problem that in that in some situations, it lacks counterplay. I would agree that IN GENERAL it has poor counterplay -- but not NO counterplay. The larger issue is that it lacks subtlety in use in many situations -- in some situations, you just spam through your targets. Kinda a no brainer. Compare to feast where it's a little closer range, and you only get to do it once. And you have tension earlier about building up stacks and using your ult CD on NPCs. That plays a lot better.

Vlad Pool I would say on net reduces counterplay in the game more than it adds nuance in play. It's OK if a mechanic is super nuanced and fun for the guy using it, and only a slight hit on the other side, but Vlad probably holistically has issues. There's not a lot of weaknesses to exploit, and pool reduces nuance to a limited extent in it's present incarnation. Nerfs have helped a lot, but there are still some issues. I don't know that we will be remaking it.

BKB has a much larger impact, as it's an item, not a character. DOTA is balanced around the existence of this item, and in some sense, it's a binary counter after a basic level of skill (if you have BKB, hard counter certain character sets), not a nuanced one. It's much better to have a highly nuanced counter.

Counterplay is as much about having a response of X to Y, as it is about a general philosophy that as you add mechanics, you need to consider their impact on the game holistically -- does it make the game more interesting, competitive, nuanced, fun IN GENERAL, not just in the local situation the mechanic will be used.
Hey Zileas, I had a thought on Vlad's pool. I'm sure it's not the first time the idea has been thrown around either, but what about making Vlad immune to targeted abilities only?

e.g. Anivia could not hit a pooled Vlad with her Q. However her ult would slow/do damage


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Auryiel

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Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Not entirely.

Darius ult actually has some amount of counterplay because you can outrange it. There is some problem that in that in some situations, it lacks counterplay. I would agree that IN GENERAL it has poor counterplay -- but not NO counterplay. The larger issue is that it lacks subtlety in use in many situations -- in some situations, you just spam through your targets. Kinda a no brainer. Compare to feast where it's a little closer range, and you only get to do it once. And you have tension earlier about building up stacks and using your ult CD on NPCs. That plays a lot better.

Vlad Pool I would say on net reduces counterplay in the game more than it adds nuance in play. It's OK if a mechanic is super nuanced and fun for the guy using it, and only a slight hit on the other side, but Vlad probably holistically has issues. There's not a lot of weaknesses to exploit, and pool reduces nuance to a limited extent in it's present incarnation. Nerfs have helped a lot, but there are still some issues. I don't know that we will be remaking it.

BKB has a much larger impact, as it's an item, not a character. DOTA is balanced around the existence of this item, and in some sense, it's a binary counter after a basic level of skill (if you have BKB, hard counter certain character sets), not a nuanced one. It's much better to have a highly nuanced counter.

Counterplay is as much about having a response of X to Y, as it is about a general philosophy that as you add mechanics, you need to consider their impact on the game holistically -- does it make the game more interesting, competitive, nuanced, fun IN GENERAL, not just in the local situation the mechanic will be used.
Not sure if this would be bad, but on the subject of counterplay, I've always wondered why you can't use Zhonya to counter Darius' ult. At best, you stall him for 2.5 second and he just dunks you. I thought it would be good if Darius' ult goes on CD if you use Zhonya while he's in the air. Sure, you can QSS the passive, but QSS feels like a total waste on mages and doesn't help vs most of his damage, which is physical :|

To anyone saying it would counter Darius too hard : QSS+Malzahar... And Zhonya is really only bought by mages, who already struggle vs Darius.


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ObscureClockwork

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocuses View Post
So how would making you need 5 stacks do and the killing blow do?
i don't think that would help, as he generally only uses the ult if he uses it with 5 stacks, and i feel it isn't terribly difficult to get 5 stacks


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Imperfectable

Senior Member

11-21-2012

As a student of game design I'd really like to thank you for taking the time to speak with them about this. As an academic field game design is still so young that the body of scholarly work on the subject just doesn't exist, and there's still so much information tied up in the trial and error of design pioneers. Any time someone can step up and make a contribution to the communal knowledge on the subject it really is a great service.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I feel like flash evaluates pretty well on those dimensions. BKB on the other hand takes a bunch of partial counters to your carry (various ccs and nukes), and negates them, leaving a much narrower field of responses available. The ACT of BKB is satisfying, and it presents a 'counter' to the things that would counter the carry using it, but I would argue that a rich network of soft counters is more interesting than coming to a head of 'hard counter vs hard counter'.
I'd point out though that the very lack of existence of BKB also completely negates and screws over an entire category and archetype of characters in LoL--the melee carry--In its current state the melee carry (in LoL) is the easiest thing to counter, in the game--see him in champ select? Just pick one more exhaust and he's done (I realize exhaust's potential has been cut down a bit, but at the same time too,it now has an added AS debuff on it, so I'm not sure it's really any better...not to mention just the MS slow is often enough to negate you).

There's also just plain hard CC and their ultra-susceptibility to burst and/or AoE damage, which makes it night impossible in even semi-organized play for them to go in and do their job at all.

I really doubt Mercurial scimitar will really address this, either---it does give some survivability against this AoE and provides a nice negation of one point of CC, but you still have the problem of (1) the next CC (2) Ranged carry vs melee carry.

The Ranged carry will build IE+PD and be completely fine because they're...well, ranged and stay safe. The melee carry has better base damage, usually, and steroids---the problem is, crit is just so strong that PD+IE will still out-damage PD+Scimitar, even with melee carries increased base damage.

So even with scimitar and the exhaust changes, I don't see anything changing for this class---why should I pick a melee carry over ranged (or at all) when ranged has vastly superior survivability and still has superior DPS?

Furthermore, there's going to be vastly more kiting items in S3 (Shard of True Ice, Frozen Fist, Blade of the Ruined King) and more AoE damage from bruisers/ranged carries (Hydra/Tiamat and Shiv/Hurricane) that this hurts their ability to "get in there" even more and gets them burnt down even faster.

I just think it's kinda sad that this entire archetype is completely unviable and absent from LoL and totally neglected; it's extremely frustrating. =/


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HughMyronbrough

Member

11-21-2012

Vayne's Silver Bolts?

Removal of Dodge and nerfs to existing AS slows really hurt the little counterplay that was here.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2012
9 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
I'd point out though that the very lack of existence of BKB also completely negates and screws over an entire category and archetype of characters in LoL--the melee carry--In its current state the melee carry (in LoL) is the easiest thing to counter, in the game--see him in champ select? Just pick one more exhaust and he's done (I realize exhaust's potential has been cut down a bit, but at the same time too,it now has an added AS debuff on it, so I'm not sure it's really any better...not to mention just the MS slow is often enough to negate you).

There's also just plain hard CC and their ultra-susceptibility to burst and/or AoE damage, which makes it night impossible in even semi-organized play for them to go in and do their job at all.

I really doubt Mercurial scimitar will really address this, either---it does give some survivability against this AoE and provides a nice negation of one point of CC, but you still have the problem of (1) the next CC (2) Ranged carry vs melee carry.

The Ranged carry will build IE+PD and be completely fine because they're...well, ranged and stay safe. The melee carry has better base damage, usually, and steroids---the problem is, crit is just so strong that PD+IE will still out-damage PD+Scimitar, even with melee carries increased base damage.

So even with scimitar and the exhaust changes, I don't see anything changing for this class---why should I pick a melee carry over ranged (or at all) when ranged has vastly superior survivability and still has superior DPS?

Furthermore, there's going to be vastly more kiting items in S3 (Shard of True Ice, Frozen Fist, Blade of the Ruined King) and more AoE damage from bruisers/ranged carries (Hydra/Tiamat and Shiv/Hurricane) that this hurts their ability to "get in there" even more and gets them burnt down even faster.

I just think it's kinda sad that this entire archetype is completely unviable and absent from LoL and totally neglected; it's extremely frustrating. =/
Agreed, but that solution isn't worth making a class of characters viable, and it's not the only solution. At any rate, cost/benefit analysis of solutions is really important, and Tryndamere being in tournaments isn't worth the sheer amount of option removal BKB would bring for League.


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Skias

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Morello, Has the team considered making Darius' ult a skillshot of sorts instead of a target? Like... you click and it creates a small straight line in front of Darius to give other champions a chance to dodge it? Sometimes if you flash away from Darius, the ult will still land and it really doesn't create the feel of a jumping axe strike, so much as an invisible nuclear missile hitting you. Just curious as to your thoughts on this?


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed, but that solution isn't worth making a class of characters viable, and it's not the only solution. At any rate, cost/benefit analysis of solutions is really important, and Tryndamere being in tournaments isn't worth the sheer amount of option removal BKB would bring for League.
I partially realize this---I'm just extremely frustrated that after 3 years hardly anything (well, absolutely nothing until S3) has been done for melee carries at all---I was really hopeful for them to get a "little something something" that shed some ray of hope in S3, but, on the whole it seems like things will be even worse for them, now (I fully admit I could be wrong).

Equally as frustrating is the fact there's only 3 melee carries in the--one of which you, yourself, have stated multiple times want to see be turned into an assassin =/ (at the same time, I understand the challenges reasons why not to---why continue making characters of an archetype of that archetype isn't viable in your game structure).