@Zileas - Counter Play

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Claw of Time

Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
?
?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-21-2012
4 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObscureClockwork View Post
wait, so darius's ult, vlad pool, and BKB remove nuances and counterplay innately?
Not entirely.

Darius ult actually has some amount of counterplay because you can outrange it. There is some problem that in that in some situations, it lacks counterplay. I would agree that IN GENERAL it has poor counterplay -- but not NO counterplay. The larger issue is that it lacks subtlety in use in many situations -- in some situations, you just spam through your targets. Kinda a no brainer. Compare to feast where it's a little closer range, and you only get to do it once. And you have tension earlier about building up stacks and using your ult CD on NPCs. That plays a lot better.

Vlad Pool I would say on net reduces counterplay in the game more than it adds nuance in play. It's OK if a mechanic is super nuanced and fun for the guy using it, and only a slight hit on the other side, but Vlad probably holistically has issues. There's not a lot of weaknesses to exploit, and pool reduces nuance to a limited extent in it's present incarnation. Nerfs have helped a lot, but there are still some issues. I don't know that we will be remaking it.

BKB has a much larger impact, as it's an item, not a character. DOTA is balanced around the existence of this item, and in some sense, it's a binary counter after a basic level of skill (if you have BKB, hard counter certain character sets), not a nuanced one. It's much better to have a highly nuanced counter.

Counterplay is as much about having a response of X to Y, as it is about a general philosophy that as you add mechanics, you need to consider their impact on the game holistically -- does it make the game more interesting, competitive, nuanced, fun IN GENERAL, not just in the local situation the mechanic will be used.


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Claw of Time

Member

11-21-2012

My lack of knowledge of what is going on is making me sad


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tempnameA461

Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Darius ult actually has some amount of counterplay because you can outrange it. There is some problem that in that in some situations, it lacks counterplay. The larger issue is that it lacks subtlety in use in many situations.
Like Shen ult.
But meanwhile in unstoppable constant gank and countergank TF Ult Land.....


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ObscureClockwork

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Not entirely.

Darius ult actually has some amount of counterplay because you can outrange it. There is some problem that in that in some situations, it lacks counterplay. The larger issue is that it lacks subtlety in use in many situations.

Vlad Pool I would say on net reduces counterplay in the game more than it adds nuance in play. It's OK if a mechanic is super nuanced and fun for the guy using it, and only a slight hit on the other side, but Vlad probably holistically has issues. There's not a lot of weaknesses to exploit, and pool reduces nuance to a limited extent in it's present incarnation. Nerfs have helped a lot, but there are still some issues. I don't know that we will be remaking it.

BKB has a much larger impact, as it's an item, not a character. DOTA is balanced around the existence of this item, and in some sense, it's a binary counter after a basic level of skill (if you have BKB, hard counter certain character sets), not a nuanced one. It's much better to have a highly nuanced counter.

Counterplay is as much about having a response of X to Y, as it is about a general philosophy that as you add mechanics, you need to consider their impact on the game holistically -- does it make the game more interesting, competitive, nuanced, fun IN GENERAL, not just in the local situation the mechanic will be used.
i think i get what you are saying now

on another issue. similarly, how BKB balances dota, could flash be said the same as well?
burst mobility like that is rather hard to counter, because, well, i happens so fast. there is flash as a counter, but is that not similar to your carry using BKB?

and what does subtlety in use mean?


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Zectra

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-21-2012

That video was awesome. I'd love to listen to a longer talk or even read a rigorous paper on it.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-21-2012
5 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObscureClockwork View Post
i think i get what you are saying now

on another issue. similarly, how BKB balances dota, could flash be said the same as well?
burst mobility like that is rather hard to counter, because, well, i happens so fast. there is flash as a counter, but is that not similar to your carry using BKB?

and what does subtlety in use mean?
Well, flash is a generally-must-have in LoL, but you should consider the net impact --

1) How nuanced is it to use? How fun is it to use?
2) How do opponents respond to it? How nuanced, competitive, skill differentiated, interesting, fun are these responses?
3) Of the above, does your ability to utilize this ability or the counters to it improve dramatically as you gain experience with the game?

I feel like flash evaluates pretty well on those dimensions. BKB on the other hand takes a bunch of partial counters to your carry (various ccs and nukes), and negates them, leaving a much narrower field of responses available. The ACT of BKB is satisfying, and it presents a 'counter' to the things that would counter the carry using it, but I would argue that a rich network of soft counters is more interesting than coming to a head of 'hard counter vs hard counter'. Do soft counters still exist after a BKB is in the game? Yes. Are they a lot less? Yes. My argument is that the overall value of something like this is negative.

We've tried to balance LoL as a network of rich partial counters. Granted, we still have some hard counters in some situations, but it's what we strive to do, and we've been very cautious on itemization and summoner spells in particular because of their potential to end up in every situation.

- Zileas


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-21-2012
6 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObscureClockwork View Post

and what does subtlety in use mean?
Subtlety in use meaning -- is there a big difference between the capability a 1800 player uses it vs a 2000 vs a 1600 vs a 1400. Do small improvements in how well you use it result in significant game reward? Do small improvements in how well you respond to it result in significant game reward? (e.g. tracking flash cooldowns, thinking about positioning, timing stuff like twisted advance, etc)


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2012
7 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackalHalfdragon View Post
It's champs like Darious, where the fun of killstealing a penta outweigh the counterplay (ooh, I popped Barrier! your ult is on cooldown! ...oh wait I died) that we get "toxic" gameplay.
This is a great counter-example, because in making him more fun for the Darius user, we removed a lot of counter-play - and this is why Darius sticks out like a sore thumb in League and is frustrating. It's also the reason I think Vlad and Irelia are poorer designs. Their kits limit counter-play, or another word, interesting interactivity between players.

Originally, for example, Darius had to get 10 stacks - something almost impossible, before his ult did anything crazy. When we got feedback about people not enjoying that, we overtuned the stack reliance back and made things less interactive, and ultimately weakening Darius' design. I'd like to go back and make it more like this when we have the time.


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A Swarm of Koala

Member

11-21-2012

Hi Zileas.


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