@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

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Reaganomics

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by serverny JR View Post
I can't wait how you will explain us that you are super happy when Marketing Departent decides time has come to make $$$ with 100% sl#tty boobs/butt selling skin for Leona.

Everyone who has brain and basic knowledge of your playerbase demographic will understand why almost every female champion is either sl#tty from get go, or gets sl#tty skin ASAP (like Diana, Riven).

This game will never get female versions of Swain/Singed/Gragas/Urgot, thats it. Because "boobs sell the best to 14-year-old-males".
Feel free to bookmark this post
Why would anyone bother bookmarking that post?

This is not directed 100% at you, but more to the community at large.

People who are complaining about this, and bringing up what stylus said about how they are changing things in the art department are entirely ignoing that he said that... what? 1-3 months ago? And by that point Elise was nearing completion and Nami was well on her way as well. They aren't going to change an entire model so close to release, it doesn't make sense, and the only time they have is with Lux and that was more of a Re-color than anything.

So what if a female champ gets a ****ty skin? Different people like different things. I find the base Diana skin boring. It is bland looking, so I use the Valk skin... not because it shows skin but because I like the colors and look of the skin better than the base. If a player feels that way than why vilify them? It MAKES sense for Riot to release both conservative and ****ty skins for female champs, they cover a greater player range when they do and THAT will draw in more money. Is there a problem with that? NO. And you know why it isn't? Because it brings in more money for this game. More money means more features, more skins, more champs, more game modes, better art, graphic updates, server updates, server quality control and etc etc etc.

If you don't like the ****ty skins, dont buy them. If you like a more conservative skin for a champ, buy it instead. But don't demonize riot for releasing such products, products that earn them money for game improvements, and don't demonize players for buying those products.


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parentheses

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Therefore, this issue is not in the interest of the player-base from this perspective, but instead is a crusade of some social morality angle that doesn't have anything to do with game development.

If some people want to talk about the philosophic nature of how portrayal of gender in society effects video games, I'm not terribly interested in that conversation - I want to make what people like.
First off, thanks to you and IronStylus for responding to this thread.

Picking out these two quotes, I have to ask the question "why?" Why don't you think that social morality doesn't have a place in game development? Why don't you think thing like gender stereotyping, oversexualization, etc. have a place in the discussion?

If artists, musicians, designers only ever catered to making "what people like" there would be a lack of innovation and a simple re-enforcing of stereotypes and the status quo.

The core of my main post was anger at variety in female champ design. Maybe I didn't do a good job of communicating that and for that I am sorry. However, I still stand by my idea that sticking breasts on every female champ, making splash arts from revealing angles, and pumping up sexual appeal where none is needed results in less variety and less innovative, cool, unique female champions.


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BelligerentGnu

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
This isn't really something that needs to march to the beat of a thousand pitchforks. We've had this discussion, you guys know my stances and you've heard me say it a thousand times. I'm not going to offer promises, you'll be satisfied when you see results that tug properly at your heartstrings. Until then I don't think this has to be anything super hyperbolic. I think we have to look at this in its context, this is part of the depth, breadth, and contrast of League of Legends.

Again, something that is cool that you might want to keep in mind: again, the discussion has snagged the attention of two fairly notable people at Riot, Morello and myself. That should show that we do look, we do listen, and we do incorporate. There is literally an open forum to come at us with feedback. I want to take a moment to recognize how special that is and why it makes me so happy to be involved in this community. The fact that I can listen to so many voices from across the world and directly help to improve our game is absolutely amazing. I think that it should be kept in mind.

We're critical thinkers here and we think very critically about what we make. What's neat is that I can take this information, again, and return with it to my colleagues, discuss it in the open, point to specific discussions or particular arguments. I want to let you know that I am thankful for this community and the opinions it expresses. I want to know what people are thinking, so when we can take the opportunity to embrace and integrate feedback, we do it.

Syndra, Elise, Zyra. Lessons learned. I don't need a reddit graph to tell me what's up. Nami and champions to come, I have faith. I see course correction and critical analysis of player feedback internally. Oh how I wish that the insight people like myself and Morello have on the process could be shared. You'd know that every time someone gives us a valid opinion that it causes wheels to turn, despite not being completely visible to the external eye. This stuff does travel, it does get discussed.The last time we had this discussion our art director became directly involved in responses. How cool is that?

Will you be pleased with absolutely everything coming forward? **** no! You're going to love some things and hate other things. That's what depth, breadth and contrast is all about. Find what you love, embrace it and let us know. The wheels turn. They turn slowly. But slow turning or not, discussions like this are the grease those wheels always need to stay moving.
Hi Ironstylus,

First, thanks to you and the other reds for this. I've been playing league for almost two years now, and things like this are a big part of the reason I keep coming back to it. Seeing a game evolve is cool; knowing that you may have been a small part of that evolution is pretty damn unique. The open discussion you have with us matters a lot.

There's really only a couple of things more I want to say here. One is that, while you're right, these discussions should factor the development cycle into things, I hope you extend similar empathy towards us players, particularly those who don't hang out on the forums a lot, and may not have read enough red posts to get a full sense of what you've conveyed over months/years. While you almost always make good on your promises (even if sometimes it takes a long time - *cough* Stealth Rework */cough*), we can only ever judge by what we see - and if we haven't seen particular red posts, we by default have to respond based on the present state of things.

All of which is to say that until we see those wonderful new diana-esque champs (and I have faith that we will,) we can only respond to what we see, and when it's something that matters deeply to a lot of us, the rhetoricis going to get heated at times. I know it can't be fun to take heat for six months until you can demonstrate something, but the various reds have proven themselves adept tanks. I hope you'll also remember that these forums are just about the *only* avenue most of us have to even indirectly influence the state of game design - and the frustration you see won't just be frustration with one Mermaid champion, but with a medium we love but consistently objectifies women.

As well, I'd point out that it's possible to be very vocally critical of one aspect of something and still like it overall. You can like Darkflame Shyvana and still be annoyed by the boob window; You can like Dark Valkyrie Diana and still be incensed - incensed - that the headdress was removed. You can like a fun, spritely mermaid support champion and still think that the torso area could have used some extra work.

You mention that these discussions keep the wheels moving - well, the squeaky wheel does get the grease. So we'll keep having these discussions, and you'll probably have to repeat yourself a thousand times more. But I don't think that's a bad thing, and I hope that despite the sometimes heated tone, you'll keep coming back to talk. Angry or not, it's only meant with love.


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Falleth

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Why don't you think that social morality doesn't have a place in game development?
Because it's artificial, often made up creation, mostly perpetuated by religions.


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Keegzz

Member

11-18-2012

Oh boy, this **** again


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Reaganomics

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
Picking out these two quotes, I have to ask the question "why?" Why don't you think that social morality doesn't have a place in game development?
Probably because Riot isn't here to push their personal morals on people, and everyone has a different view on social morality to begin with.

If you have a problem with these things, which is entirely fine, than it is your own personal morals and views. Your idea of social morality confounds me a bit when I walk down the street in summer and see nearly every girl between the ages of 14-30 wearing low cut tops and short shorts. If anything cleavage seems to be more of the social norm as opposed to morally objectionable, at least by sociatal standards.

Not everyone will share your views and morals and the last thing that should be pushed on people is personal morality.

Do I want some less ****ty female champs? Yes. Two of my favorite champs are Lux and Riven, both of which are not sexualized, does that mean I'm not going to play a fun champ like Zyra because she has boobs? Of course not. A balance is needed, but when Stylus made those statements Nami (who really isn't that bad and like others I didn't even notice the breasts on the game model) and Elise were already nearing completion, but Elise is a seductress based on the Black Widos formula so I have zero problems with her being sexy. Like I stated before the only time a champs model has been drastically changed before release was Lux and that was more of a re-color.

I don't think ****ty champs take anything away from this game, I really don't mind them in the least and of the 20+ girls I know who play this game only one has a problem with them and it's because she is Uber Mega Hyper Catholic and finds the lack of modesty unappealing. I really don't think that this is a major wide spread problem, I just think that those opposed to ****ty skins/champs are just very vocal.


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Zephyr1991

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Reasons.
"GD Discussion"


FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-


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Jayeto

Member

11-18-2012

lol i still give you respect for your opinions on the whole boob thing is just still to hard not to laugh at people who are getting in the least bit upset a art and pixels in a video game XD.

but i still respect your opinion


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serverny JR

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaganomics View Post
I use the Valk skin... not because it shows skin
Yes, sure...

And for some people a single sl#tty skin ruins whole champion, because deep in your heart you know that Riot turned another female champion into sexappeal selling machine.

Its not like i hate boobs/erotic looks, but in LOL it went too far, when they rub XXX sized boobs on every female champion into my eyes it becomes really annoying, to the point where i believe that this game is too childish/lacks depth in characters for people older than 25 years.


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Koelof

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by serverny JR View Post
Yes, sure...

And for some people a single sl#tty skin ruins whole champion, because deep in your heart you know that Riot turned another female champion into ***-appeal selling machine.

Its not like i hate boobs/erotic looks, but in LOL it went too far, when they rub XXX sized boobs on every female champion into my eyes it becomes really annoying, to the point where i believe that this game is too childish/lacks depth in characters for people older than 25 years.

I guess you don't go outside, then? If you did, you'd have XXX sized boobs rubbed into your eyes everywhere.


Average cup size in US is a D, Canada is a C.


Not to mention how many girls age 14-30 wear low-cut tops, show off cleavage, etc. Do you go to any clubs? Bars? Really, anything that isn't at home, a comic book store, or a game store? Even there you'll still see this, just not as much.

Now, I'm not making a poke at you. I'm not saying that only going to limited places is wrong, or you're wrong, but you need to know you're BIASED. Your view is not attributed to what mainstream society is.


tl;dr Nothing wrong with boobs/cleavage. It's an every-day occurence.