@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

First Riot Post
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LouisLeGros

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Morello if you are still reading this thread I've got a question for you.

I earlier posted a picture of Queen Rutela from Twilight Princess. How do you feel Nami portrays the regal mermaid appearance in comparison to Queen Rutela? Where do you feel Nami's design succeeds with her presentation as a character and do you think Riot have made a character as visually interesting as Nintendo did with regards to regal mermaid theme?


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-18-2012
11 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanblod View Post
What exactly are you doing? Using a new voice actor or just doing some editing magic?
Edit magic. Fun and light is good, 12 is a bit far


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LORDBIGDOGGIE

Junior Member

11-18-2012

Okay... Is it really that hard to design a FEW female champs that aren't over sexualized? Or at least not introduce four cleavage momma's in a row?


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-18-2012
12 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
I think it is important to talk about the implications of what we make--and to hear from players what they're feeling about what we make. If our game is a cultural artifact, then it has cultural implications and exists in a cultural space (which is one of dialogue!).

TL;DR: Davin nerd Psychologist nerd nerd
And davin is a much better person to have this conversation that I am, since he's an expert and passionate about such topics


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Rusty Leaves

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Edit magic. Fun and light is good, 12 is a bit far
I immediately imagined you guys just putting her voice through a Darth Vader voice changer.

Edit: Thought I'd point out that I don't believe her voice needs to be changed, she sounds young and spunky like Fizz. I just hope you don't make it sound... awkwardly done.


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Chronololololol

Junior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We're working on this now - I definitely agree.
If I could put my 2cents into this topic, could you please keep her voice at least similar to what it is now? I've liked hearing a difference between her voice and the voice of alot of the other female champions. I'm just hoping that you don't just slap the generic Zyra/Elise attempt at a sexualized vocie on her.


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FioraIsMaiWaifu

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Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is the valid conversation to pursue, because it speaks to variety as opposed to the moral foundations of sexualization or offense. I think this is the variety of silhouette that IronStylus refers to when we say we need to take a look - Zyra, Elise and Syndra have more similar form language that doesn't help the character jump off the page as much (even though the characters are designed to be different) and be memorable, where I think Diana does have that language.

You will see some old types of archetypes that we've learned from - sufficiently "derpy" (without good humor or cuteness) or unappealing archetypes (old, crippled man who is supposed to be a tactician but is just a bird-wizard) aren't something we'll go towards, but finding what replaces them is the interesting part - and importantly how to make it both cool and differentiated.
I rarely vocalize my opinion on a lot of things, but I agree with Morello. Swain is one of the more poorly conceptualized champions when it comes to a model that equates to the way he is played. Kha'Zix hunkers down in brush and Draven talks when he catches axes. I point these out because they go towards what the character is all about: an ultimate predator and an arrogant showman. Swain's entire kit is based around mobility; it is the sword that he lives and dies by. Why does the guy use a cane? He's supposed to be crippled and yet he does more walking than most casters.

Furthermore, I see no problem with having busty or beautiful female champions. I truly wish that we had more champions like Darius, Cassiopeia, Ashe, Tryndamere and Varus - minus the stupid circlet, something that won't be an issue with his Arclight skin - rather than Singed, Fiddlesticks, Blitzcrank, Trundle and Hecarim. Riot is a company. Making money is important to them. I won't deny that there are individuals that love monster champions, but it is foolish to say that the overwhelming majority of people like them. People are drawn to attractive and charismatic individuals. Riot seeks to translate this into their characters so that we, their consumers, buy the champions. Why create something that the majority of your consumers won't purchase just to please a small portion of the overall community?


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mogonk

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
And davin is a much better person to have this conversation that I am, since he's an expert and passionate about such topics
Yeah, you guys have done well at delegating the job of dealing with the discontent over this to people who seem to actually care.

Of course, ultimately you just trick people into thinking that Riot as a whole cares far more about this issue than you actually do, which isn't even a good PR move except in the very short term. Misleading players about how Riot sees this only works until they figure out you're just lying to them.

Your posts in this thread, combined with IronStylus, go a long way towards establishing once and for all that most reds don't care.


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Warm One

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
This discussion is the type of thing that does influence what people like though, and as such it is important to some people. While I can understand how not everyone would enjoy taking part in such a conversation, I do still feel it's important to have it.

I'm in the camp of people who loves Nami's look. Already, she looks like she's gonna be one of my favourite champions from a visual standpoint. But her being fantastic doesn't make up for previous champions being disappointing (Zyra), or downright terrible (Elise).

Standing up, making opinions heard is the way to let you, the creators who want to make what people like know 'hey, this is what I like, this is why I like it. This is what I don't like, this is why I think it sucks', in order to hopefully result in more things that more people like.

Of course, everyone likes different things, and what I think is awful, someone else likes. But that just makes it even more important for people to make their voices heard. As an example, if everyone stayed quiet except for the people who like Miss Fortune, then the only champions we'd ever get would be MF clones, because you make what people like, and since that's all anyone talks about, that must be the only thing they like, right? But then there are people who want different stuff, so they speak up, and they say they want Leona. And now somebody else wants Varus. And then other people want a female Cho'Gath. And that guy over there wants more Draven. And then some weirdo wants Teemo. And it goes on and on. Because voicing our differences of opinion and different desires for champions we'd like to see is how we'll let you know that what we like is more variety and more things that are different. This conversation needs to happen, and it needs to keep happening to make sure it's known that there are people on all sides who all want different things, lest some of them get swept under the rug and forgotten or ignored in favour of always making more MFs.

EDIT: And right now, people are saying they want more female variety still, especially in regards to body type and sexuality. As much as I like and am happy Nami's look, I still see the side that views her as being the same sort of body type/sexualization, and in many ways I share it. Just having a fish tail doesn't necessarily change her body type much. From the top up, Nami is still very similar in proportion to most other LoL women, where men still get hulks like Mundo, lanky skinny guys like Singed, monsters like Cho'Gath, anthros like Rengar, yordles, casual guys like Ezreal, or beefy guys like Tryndamere. Female body types in-game simply don't vary that much like the men do, and now people are asking that they get a piece of the pie instead of being swept aside.
Definitely saving this too, thank you.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-18-2012
13 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi of Ruckus View Post
Snipsnip
It is nice to see analysis of this issue done maturely - good post.

It's hard, because I'm trying to understand one thing and one thing only from my POV: how much does this actually, really matter to players or potential players. It's the type of issue where volume and actual representation of the issue can easily be mismatched, and I actually have such a neutrality (ie; it neither bothers me nor excites me) on the issue I can only see it as a data point that can help me understand players. I recognize the variety issue as very important to players, but I worry "outrage for outrage's sake" may cloud the understanding I can get out of the conversation; dispelling and avoiding that is really my primary interest here.

Luckily, considering the above, I'm very uninvolved in decisions about this, except to red-flag anything that seems too far off to me. Though since my sensitivity either way is pretty low, I have low involvement on concept art decisions stylistically and leave that to people who are responsible for it - especially because I think they understand the tradeoffs and benefits much better than I do.