@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
But that's.....awesome.

I hope if they do change the voice, they don't remove the cute childlike nature of it.
Problem is that cute childlike voice has a jarring dissonance with the fully grown body choice they have, and we can argue all day about whether that body type is a problem but it's pretty obvious that the two make no sense together. I like the voice too, just not on a character with the lowest cut top known to mankind and the backing to use said top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is the valid conversation to pursue, because it speaks to variety as opposed to the moral foundations of sexualization or offense. I think this is the variety of silhouette that IronStylus refers to when we say we need to take a look - Zyra, Elise and Syndra have more similar form language that doesn't help the character jump off the page as much (even though the characters are designed to be different) and be memorable, where I think Diana does have that language.

You will see some old types of archetypes that we've learned from - sufficiently "derpy" (without good humor or cuteness) or unappealing archetypes (old, crippled man who is supposed to be a tactician but is just a bird-wizard) aren't something we'll go towards, but finding what replaces them is the interesting part - and importantly how to make it both cool and differentiated.
Re Syndra: I think the boat you missed there was "Kassadin's Daughter". She has the color style already (heck, she summons void orbs), the kit, and the theme, but somehow her lore says "random mage of great potential" instead. Add onto that with her dress making her just another "straps and belts" sexy mage, and it kinda fell flat. I was super excited to hear of her but when the trifecta of purple zyra lookalike, super underpowered at release, and no cool lore hit, it's gonna be a while before i consider unlocking her.


You say that you made all these mistakes with newer champions, but is there any plan to fix them? Go back and lightly redo Zyra's style, maybe polish Syndra's dress and/or retcon the lore, etc.


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Cryswar

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
imo, while I love Swain, I do have a problem with him in terms of theme.


His Title, Master Tactician, makes absolutely no sense. You expect him to be some sort of elderly male support champion, or atleast a mage with high utility spells.


But instead he's a tanky-AP that wades into the battlefield to tanky/DPS the enemy with magic damage. Absolutely nothing tactical, a bit brutish even. While that makes him cool, he should have had a different title than Master Tactician. Like..."Swain, the <insert reference to Poe or The Raven poem>"
As a human, yes, he does.

As a raven, he's a murderbeast.

Duality of character - his play style changes COMPLETELY between human and demon form, from calculated aggression and carefully engaging the opponent from long range with damage over time and CC to just... waddling in and murdering people from whatever range.

And he IS a mage with high utility spells for the record, aoe snare and targeted slow built right in, on top of a damage amp.


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Mughi of Ruckus

Senior Member

11-18-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, it means some people have a very vocal opinion and want to express it until it is resolve to their personal satisfaction. That may or may not align with what is right for our game and our players.

Excuse me for a moment, I need to speak very candidly about this issue and I may be representing my personal (as opposed to Riot) views here;

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IronStylus has essentially mentioned that they're looking at fixing things like similar silhouettes and other shape-language that lessens variety - but while keeping a stylistic consistency to League of Legends. This character has a fish for a body, but you're so over-focused on the breasts issue that you can't see the forest for the trees. Therefore, this issue is not in the interest of the player-base from this perspective, but instead is a crusade of some social morality angle that doesn't have anything to do with game development.

All of the male characters (that we're happy with...) have strong musculature and other traditionally powerful, male features. All of our females have identifiable femininity in their forums, and that is played up or down based on the archetype. Nami is one of the better-received champion sneak peeks we've seen, so players enjoy it, and accomplishes variety from a lot of angles.

For context, did you know Miss Fortune is the most popular character among female League players? Sona is #2 - something that is appealing to the eye is more aspirational and has a higher "cool quotient" than things that are not - even without hormones in the equation (unless their cool is based on an opposing feature (Kog'Maw, for example)).

We want to offer variety, and earlier this year we talked a lot about improving that. A mermaid is pretty varied when compared to other female champions, and if it has breasts, or not isn't something I think is a focal point of things that actually matter - especially when we do have strong female characters like Diana, Leona or Riven.

The art team's thoughts as a whole may deviate from what I just posted (they know more about forms and shape language than I by miles), but if we do provide variety, and we do provide good alternatives to exposed characters, then from a holistic standpoint, I'd call that successful. If some people want to talk about the philosophic nature of how portrayal of gender in society effects video games, I'm not terribly interested in that conversation - I want to make what people like.
When they say same body type, they mean in terms of shape. Sure, she's half fish, but she still has identifiable hips, an identifiable waist and identifiable breasts. Her hips and breasts are very generous and her waist is very slim. Her limbs are slim too. No real muscle to speak of. This is identical to every female champion since Diana. By contrast: http://viz.dwrl.utexas.edu/content/a...verly-ornstein.

Assuming League champions are all in athletic condition, even if they're mages, since they run around on a regular basis, most of their body types should correspond to some sort of athlete, much like the men's do. As you pointed out, the men have "strong musculature." Instead, you've said they're balanced against the men because they have "identifiable femininity in their forms." Note what you just did there, I'm guessing unintentionally. You equated femininity with lack of muscle definition and presence of curves despite the range the human female body expresses in real life.

I know you're speaking of ideals here, but isn't it a problem when the ideal female becomes distanced from athleticism. Isn't that the same sort of thing that eventually leads people to call women who rock wall climb "gross-looking" and "manly" because they have defined shoulders, to call girls who like sports tomboys? Is this not problematic in some way?

Clearly the gender issues of humanity are not your or Riot's responsibility. At the same time, ignoring them as overblown because Miss Fortune and Sona are well-liked by players and share the body type the preponderance of which is taken issue with does your community a disservice. Yes, mermaids are normally depicted as attractive women in popular culture. (Though a Google Image search shows most mermaids as more modest in scale their attributes, but then I do have safesearch on.) In a vacuum, no one would take much issue with Nami's design. (though I'd still give you guys **** for giving her a "neckline" that visually suggests her fish half is a very awkward dress) This is not a vacuum though, and I think here the better response would be:

"I understand where you're coming from, and as IronStylus has mentioned before, steps are being taken. The awareness of the predominance of the issue and the attempt to correct are both relatively recent, though, and will take a while to manifest. Champions have can go a long time between conception and release, as has Elise shown. Even then, though, these champions won't go away completely. They're popular with male and female players both. Despite the issues they may exhibit, they're issues that are reflective of gender perception in our society, and maybe that's why they're so predominant and accepted. Maybe as society changes, this will correct more and more by itself as we subconsciously adjust our perceptions.

Right now, though, we're doing what we can consciously, but that won't mean everything will instantly make everyone happy. That means ratios will shift more and more towards balance as time goes on. Meanwhile, we'll continue to count on your feedback to let us know how we're doing on this front, so don't stop being vocal. At the same time, please bear with us when something like this happens and take our word for it when we say we're not ignoring you. It's a work in progress, and we don't always see how our designs will be received by others."

Based on everything I've read up to this point, the imagined response is more or less what I assumed was the case when I read about Nami the first time. If it's accurate, feel free to use it or a cleaned up version of it yourselves. No charge. If not, really Morello, I have come to expect better of you. This is not a response born from a fixation on the point of breasts. Ironstylus, you continue to be awesome. I'm still waiting for that next set of song lyrics. And with this clip from a story NPR did on The Legend of Korra, I make my leave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NPR
As for Korra herself, the show's creators imagined their headstrong heroine as the kind of girl you might meet on a snowboard.

"She's muscular, and we like that," Konietzko says. "It's definitely better than being a waif about to pass out. I know, I look like a waif who am I to judge?"

Some Nickelodeon executives were worried, says Konietzko, about backing an animated action show with a female lead character. Conventional TV wisdom has it that girls will watch shows about boys, but boys won't watch shows about girls.

During test screenings, though, boys said they didn't care that Korra was a girl. They just said she was awesome.
Demographic note: Young adult male who is 90% likely to buy Nami because her mechanics sound fun and the good in her design overrides the slight ridiculousness.


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Darkscape1

Junior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
Except nothing in there implies seduction. First off, her lore describes her as being elegant and graceful, whereas nothing about either her appearance or her movements portrays either quality. Elegance and grace are generally used to describe a more refined form of beauty, rather than the skimpy, hooker-style outfit Elise wears, and her movements are terribly unnatural, owing greatly to her horrible footwear. Go further into her lore, and what methods does she actually use to lure her prey in? Power. Youth. Beauty. Not ***. She's supposed to be a charismatic cult leader, a high priestess, she should have a refined, classy appearance, but instead looks like a street worker. Does she look like somebody who you'd think was trustworthy enough to lead you to the Shadow Isles, a place known for being highly dangerous and mysterious? Rest assured, I have not ignored Elise's lore when I ***** about her. Lore justifying it is why I have absolutely no problem with the *** appeal of Ahri, Miss Fortune, and Cassiopeia, because *** really is a part of their character.


I don't think she should be scary, I just think she should have a much stronger spider theme. She barely has any resemblance to one until she transforms.


The issue is that very few of their female champions really do this. Even fewer do it well.
Understand I am a nonpartisan member of this discussion, I think both sides have good point. Elise is the way she is because they made her that way. The way I see if, her lore can be interrupted either way. I'm not saying I like it, I think if she were half spider a reduction in traits that humans and spiders do not share such as breasts would be called for but I am simply saying I can see why they made her that way. Even if her lore is only based on her ability to lure people to her with words, people say a silver tongue goes well with looks to match.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

11-18-2012

I just want to point out that "looks to match" != displaying them for all to see. *points to diana*


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Gixia

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi of Ruckus View Post
*Snip*
I can not upvote this post hard enough.


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LORDBIGDOGGIE

Junior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is the valid conversation to pursue, because it speaks to variety as opposed to the moral foundations of sexualization or offense. I think this is the variety of silhouette that IronStylus refers to when we say we need to take a look - Zyra, Elise and Syndra have more similar form language that doesn't help the character jump off the page as much (even though the characters are designed to be different) and be memorable, where I think Diana does have that language.

You will see some old types of archetypes that we've learned from - sufficiently "derpy" (without good humor or cuteness) or unappealing archetypes (old, crippled man who is supposed to be a tactician but is just a bird-wizard) aren't something we'll go towards, but finding what replaces them is the interesting part - and importantly how to make it both cool and differentiated.

This:


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Amariithynar

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
50 pages.. no way I can read every one of these posts. To sum up though, despite what you may think, I am not the single point of failure in a scenario where a busty lady makes it through our pipeline. I'm here to be one of many voices that chimes in when appropriate. Can I flip a table or two? Absolutely, if I deem it unnecessary. I really wasn't too terribly concerned about Nami because, well, I think she's a cool design.

Did I notice the ruffles revealing some fish flesh? Yeah, I saw it months ago. Did I think it was particularly a good idea to poo-poo the design when it was on its way, when it was gathering momentum, and when it was being passionately worked on by the artist? Hell no. This will be this particular artist's first champion ever in the game. It's her show in that regard. I didn't find the cleavage to be a monumental red flag.

When I saw the concept I was like.. look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think this concept's complete? Wouldn't you think she's the girl, the girl that has, everything? Look at those frills, how they unfold. How many wonders can one mermaid hold? Looking around here you think, sure, she's got everything. She's got flippers and scepters a plenty. She's got dashes and splashes galore. You want complementary curves? She's got twenty. But who cares, no big deal, she wants more.

She wants to be where the players are, she wants to see, wants to see them fighting, thinking inside of those, what do you call them? Oh, brains! Flipping to mid you don't get to far. Supports are required for healing, casting, strolling along on that.. what's that word again? Lane! Up where they toss, up where they stun, up where they lane all day in the sun, wandering free, wished she could be, part of that role.

What would she pay, if she could play, out of those waters? What sort of gift, would let her lift, up to the game? Betcha in the rift, they get the drift, that they appreciate their healers. Crowd controllers, supporting rollers, ready to sustain, and ready to help with Carry's job. Lock up the gankers and get some assists. What's a Baron, and how does it, what's the word? Buff! When's it enough? Wouldn't they love, love to play some support up above?

Out of the sea.

Wished she could be.

Part of that roll.



..tune in next time when I explain our champion creation process akin to how the mice put together Cinderella's dress.
Saved to a .txt and uploaded to my dropbox so I can reread it wherever.


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mogonk

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
If some people want to talk about the philosophic nature of how portrayal of gender in society effects video games, I'm not terribly interested in that conversation - I want to make what people like.
What people like, or what LoL players like?

It seems like the answer is the latter, and that's self-perpetuating: if you design with the target audience of lowbrow teenage boys, you can pretty much guarantee the majority of your audience will always like your designs, because the majority of your audience will always be lowbrow teenage boys. Is that the idea?

As for whether you're interested in the conversation, it's hardly surprising to find you're not. A straight cismale who isn't interested in how women are portrayed in media? That's about as shocking as a middle class white person in 1950 who doesn't care about the civil-rights movement. It's about what I'd expect. But whether you're interested in knowing about the consequences of your actions or doing the right thing, this doesn't go away because you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that there's no such thing as ethics in entertainment.


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davin

Senior User Researcher

11-18-2012
10 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
This discussion is the type of thing that does influence what people like though, and as such it is important to some people. While I can understand how not everyone would enjoy taking part in such a conversation, I do still feel it's important to have it.
I think it is important to talk about the implications of what we make--and to hear from players what they're feeling about what we make. If our game is a cultural artifact, then it has cultural implications and exists in a cultural space (which is one of dialogue!).

TL;DR: Davin nerd Psychologist nerd nerd