@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

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Morello

Lead Designer

11-18-2012
8 of 23 Riot Posts

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Originally Posted by BelligerentGnu View Post
I think you're maybe doing a little forest-for-treesing yourself here, Morello. True, until this point LoL hasn't had a mermaid-style champ - but it *does* have Rengar, Hecarim, Cassiopeia, Warwick, Nasus, Renekton, Udyr, Twitch and Wukong. Anthropomorphic champs aren't that unusual. More to the point, while Ironstylus may or may not have been talking about overall silouhette variation, this thread and others like it are talking about a specific kind of variation - the presence of markers of sexualization in a champion.

There's something I think of as the Halloween phenomenon - that is, a number of champions look like they purchased a sexy-[blank] costume rather than going fully with their concept. Zyra, for example, could have looked something more like this - http://bit.ly/107EFE2 - and Elise's human form suffers the same issue, although transforming into a giant spider makes up for a lot. Nami I think is on the lower end of this scale, but isn't without troubles. Despite the fact that in some ways she's a very monstrous champ, she still has a human skin coloured torso (reinforcing the woman-in-a-mermaid-suit look), an hourglass figure, and a heavy visual emphasis on her boobs. (its less a matter of size, though thats a factor, than of framing)

Diana proved that a female champ doesn't need to be sexual to be badass or attractive (I'll repeat what I said at the time - you guys really knocked it out of the park with her.) And as for male champs, I'd point out Singed and Swain as good examples of the kind of variety we're looking for in female champs. One is old and walks with a cane; the other is tall, skinny and lanky.

I guess it boils down to this. A lot of the time it feels like Riot's 'default setting' for female champion design is "variant on sexy woman." All we're really seeking is a default setting of "variant on woman" - which will sometimes be sexy, and sometimes more like Singed/Swain, but will most often be more like Diana, or Leona, or Katniss from The Hunger Games, or Korra from Avatar.
This is the valid conversation to pursue, because it speaks to variety as opposed to the moral foundations of sexualization or offense. I think this is the variety of silhouette that IronStylus refers to when we say we need to take a look - Zyra, Elise and Syndra have more similar form language that doesn't help the character jump off the page as much (even though the characters are designed to be different) and be memorable, where I think Diana does have that language.

You will see some old types of archetypes that we've learned from - sufficiently "derpy" (without good humor or cuteness) or unappealing archetypes (old, crippled man who is supposed to be a tactician but is just a bird-wizard) aren't something we'll go towards, but finding what replaces them is the interesting part - and importantly how to make it both cool and differentiated.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-18-2012
9 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drozzi View Post
Which part?
The voice or the body?
Just curious.
The voice, though the concept art is just that - concept art. It was the first drawing of her, not the final.


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MrHarz

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkscape1 View Post
Elise: I went ahead and read her lore and as I expected Elise’s seductive manor is in fact very important to her character, something which has been ignored by the majority of those preaching against Riot’s artists. Let me quote the first line, “Vicious and elegant, Elise’s charismatic grace lures the innocent and greedy alike to her web of deceit. While her victims may discover her true intentions, no one has ever lived to reveal what secrets lie behind her enigmatic guise”. I wouldn’t even call this innuendo, its more like softcore horrotica. Some spider’s use smells to attract their prey to their web; If she is trying to attract the greatest prey of them all, man, then what better way than to attract them the easiest way of all, in a seductive manor. My second point is also supported by her lore. She is not some super evolved spider/woman, she is the result of transformation through dark worship. No one said she was a ‘triple D cup hotty’ before the transformation but maybe her dark god granted her these feature as a reward for service. Finally, people have been saying she should be scary cause she is a spider. What’s scarier, a giant spider in the distance or a woman that invites you in for some tea and then turns into a spider when your back is turned.
I'm not sure how you can come to this conclusion after supposedly reading her lore, when sexuality is never mentioned as part of her MO. She lures her prey (or rather, Vilemaw's lunch) in with promises of salvaton, divinity, and glory to those who would earn the spider god's favour, and her followers just eat it up.

Her lore paints her as a silver-tongued false prophet who preys on those seeking spiritual enlightenment and power, not a seductress who lures men in with promises of *** and then devours them. That's why having her dressed as a leather-clad dom in human form is so jarring.

It is of course, worth noting as well, that I doubt Vilewmaw is particular about the gender of his food, and given that Elise runs a cult, she's likely bringing in both men and women.


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Vanblod

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
The voice, though the concept art is just that - concept art. It was the first drawing of her, not the final.
What exactly are you doing? Using a new voice actor or just doing some editing magic?


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Gixia

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkscape1 View Post
Elise: I went ahead and read her lore and as I expected Elise’s seductive manor is in fact very important to her character, something which has been ignored by the majority of those preaching against Riot’s artists. Let me quote the first line, “Vicious and elegant, Elise’s charismatic grace lures the innocent and greedy alike to her web of deceit. While her victims may discover her true intentions, no one has ever lived to reveal what secrets lie behind her enigmatic guise”. I wouldn’t even call this innuendo, its more like softcore horrotica. Some spider’s use smells to attract their prey to their web; If she is trying to attract the greatest prey of them all, man, then what better way than to attract them the easiest way of all, in a seductive manor.
Except nothing in there implies seduction. First off, her lore describes her as being elegant and graceful, whereas nothing about either her appearance or her movements portrays either quality. Elegance and grace are generally used to describe a more refined form of beauty, rather than the skimpy, hooker-style outfit Elise wears, and her movements are terribly unnatural, owing greatly to her horrible footwear. Go further into her lore, and what methods does she actually use to lure her prey in? Power. Youth. Beauty. Not ***. She's supposed to be a charismatic cult leader, a high priestess, she should have a refined, classy appearance, but instead looks like a street worker. Does she look like somebody who you'd think was trustworthy enough to lead you to the Shadow Isles, a place known for being highly dangerous and mysterious? Rest assured, I have not ignored Elise's lore when I ***** about her. Lore justifying it is why I have absolutely no problem with the *** appeal of Ahri, Miss Fortune, and Cassiopeia, because *** really is a part of their character.

Quote:
Finally, people have been saying she should be scary cause she is a spider.
I don't think she should be scary, I just think she should have a much stronger spider theme. She barely has any resemblance to one until she transforms.

Quote:
If Riot wants to stay true to the characters that they create, they have to in turn make their appearance match their personality and origin.
The issue is that very few of their female champions really do this. Even fewer do it well.


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Cryswar

Senior Member

11-18-2012

I don't see how Swain is an "unappealing archetype" when he's mysterious, intelligent, and a total badass. The lore stuff was doing a great job of helping show his cleverness before it went bottom up, and I think he's one of the coolest champs in the League, even if his playstyle itself really isn't my thing.


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Imalia

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, it means some people have a very vocal opinion and want to express it until it is resolve to their personal satisfaction. That may or may not align with what is right for our game and our players.

Excuse me for a moment, I need to speak very candidly about this issue and I may be representing my personal (as opposed to Riot) views here;

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IronStylus has essentially mentioned that they're looking at fixing things like similar silhouettes and other shape-language that lessens variety - but while keeping a stylistic consistency to League of Legends. This character has a fish for a body, but you're so over-focused on the breasts issue that you can't see the forest for the trees. Therefore, this issue is not in the interest of the player-base from this perspective, but instead is a crusade of some social morality angle that doesn't have anything to do with game development.

All of the male characters (that we're happy with...) have strong musculature and other traditionally powerful, male features. All of our females have identifiable femininity in their forums, and that is played up or down based on the archetype. Nami is one of the better-received champion sneak peeks we've seen, so players enjoy it, and accomplishes variety from a lot of angles.

For context, did you know Miss Fortune is the most popular character among female League players? Sona is #2 - something that is appealing to the eye is more aspirational and has a higher "cool quotient" than things that are not - even without hormones in the equation (unless their cool is based on an opposing feature (Kog'Maw, for example)).

We want to offer variety, and earlier this year we talked a lot about improving that. A mermaid is pretty varied when compared to other female champions, and if it has breasts, or not isn't something I think is a focal point of things that actually matter - especially when we do have strong female characters like Diana, Leona or Riven.

The art team's thoughts as a whole may deviate from what I just posted (they know more about forms and shape language than I by miles), but if we do provide variety, and we do provide good alternatives to exposed characters, then from a holistic standpoint, I'd call that successful. If some people want to talk about the philosophic nature of how portrayal of gender in society effects video games, I'm not terribly interested in that conversation - I want to make what people like.
Morello, my main issue is that the in game model has deviated from the concept in a way that *makes* her breasts the focal point. The torso and the size of her chest seem larger and conform to the shape that the past few female champions you've released have had. The interesting parts of the concept art, such as the frills and the large jewel across her cleavage are smaller and less detailed in the final model. For some reason the V line plunges way further as well, just about to where her crotch would be if she didn't have a fish lower half. Somewhere along the way, your very talented 3D artist team made the collective decision to emphasize the wrong parts of the concept and this has been the same story for the past few female champion concepts that have made it past the pipeline. I would argue that diminishes the impact of those characters in your game, maybe not in a large way, but it is noticeable. Instead of emphasizing what is unique about each of those concepts, their shape and details become subsumed in the general form of the ideal feminine bodytype, or at least what you think your playerbase considers to be ideal.


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Gixia

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
I personally like the adorable naive feel her current voice gives off. While some people may hate it, we don't know how many there are compared to those who either like it or is fine with it.
My problem isn't the voice itself, so much as it is that the voice and her appearance don't seem to match. Her voice is childlike and spunky, whereas her appearance is more mature and refined.


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Ginga

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
My problem isn't the voice itself, so much as it is that the voice and her appearance don't seem to match. Her voice is childlike and spunky, whereas her appearance is more mature and refined.
But that's.....awesome.

I hope if they do change the voice, they don't remove the cute childlike nature of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryswar View Post
I don't see how Swain is an "unappealing archetype" when he's mysterious, intelligent, and a total badass. The lore stuff was doing a great job of helping show his cleverness before it went bottom up, and I think he's one of the coolest champs in the League, even if his playstyle itself really isn't my thing.
imo, while I love Swain, I do have a problem with him in terms of theme.


His Title, Master Tactician, makes absolutely no sense. You expect him to be some sort of elderly male support champion, or atleast a mage with high utility spells.


But instead he's a tanky-AP that wades into the battlefield to tanky/DPS the enemy with magic damage. Absolutely nothing tactical, a bit brutish even. While that makes him cool, he should have had a different title than Master Tactician. Like..."Swain, the <insert reference to Poe or The Raven poem>"


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Dragonk

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Wow she really does have totally gigantic breasts! Holy **** those are like double Gs! Is she a champion in league because of boobs? I mean she's gotta win a prize for those things, literally a swimming pair a ****.