@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

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Fayt Saotome

Senior Member

11-17-2012

This makes me wonder if GD even knows anything about mythology.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

11-17-2012

You know I think I'm just gonna copy/paste my original response to this kind of topic from another forum...


Quote:
Alright lets look at the champs actually using Bikini armor in their original splash arts...


Sivir
Eve
Janna
Nidalee
Elise

Sivir is a mercenary and has the whole Xena feel to her, Janna reflects a very free spirited woman matching her affinity for air, Nid is a freaking wild woman raised by Cougars, and Eve I can give you as overly sexualized as she seems to have the whole dominatrix thing going for her.

Elise by design I wouldn't give you overly sexualized at first. When they did the whole breasts bouncing at the load in screen while she was sitting down was when I had to agree they went a bit to far with it.

Now those that show mid-drift

Morgana
Miss Fortune
Katarina
Cassiopeia
Zyra
Shyvana


One is a fallen angel who frankly I'm not surprised wasn't more sexualized since normally fallen angels get the whole "drowning in sin and depravity" treatment. Cass, Zyra and Shyv are freaking plans/animal/mythical creatures and half humans, of all of them only Cassiopeia's splash art depicts her as anything resembling approachable which would fit with her lore as a woman who seduced men to reveal their secrets until she was cursed.

Miss Fortune has had the whole sassy girl thing going for her, and was built as part of her character. Her being sexualized isn't surprising.

Hell I'll even give you Katarina's mid-drift as sexualization.

All that said I'm sorry but I don't see showing mid-drift as over sexualization.


Now let's look at female champs who are not showing even mid-drift and not Yordles...


Kayle
Ashe
Soraka
Karma
Leblanc
Lux
Akali
Sona
Orianna
Caitlyn
Irelia
Syndra
Diana
Fiora
Ahri
Riven
Leona
Vayne


Now of those the only ones who really shows a lot of cleavage would be

Ahri--A half-fox woman who increased her powers by seducing men and stealing their souls, IE design fits lore.

Sona--I'll give you.


So whats the issue? In the majority of female champs the sexualization serves a purpose in terms of the champions lore, and skill set. There are a select few but it is no where near as bad as you want to believe.


Shall we compare the men?


Shirtless showing a 6 pack...


Tryn
Lee Sin
Ryze
Malphite
Alistar
Sion
Mundo
Varus


Um let's see Tryn makes sense he's a barbarian, and Sion more or less a zombie warrior as well as even Ali and Malphite with their whole nature/cow/rock thing but why is Varus, an archer, Mundo, an out of control scientists addicted to studing pain, Ryze a mage addicted to arcane learning, and Lee Sin a blind monk all bearing their chests?

Most archers I've seen generally have a shirt on because having the bow and strap from your quiver rubbing against your skin tends to dig in after a while.

Mundo I guess I can give a whole hulk effect in the end.

What mage determined to master the arcane ways runs around shirtless showing off his beefy self? Last a checked the general view of them was a fully robed guy holding a scepter or staff of some type.

Shirtless monk why? Most monks seen generally have some kind of Karate suit on or some other light outfit. They don't go around shirtless in the rain just because they can.


Now let's look at those who are showing as muscle bound tough guys...


Garen
Darius
Nasus
Shen
Udyr
Pantheon
Olaf
Xin Zhao
Gangplank
Jarvan
Malzahar
Graves



Um if you haven't noticed the list of guys is already longer than the list of women. Sure though I'll give you the whole "gotta have muscles so they can blah blah blah."

If this is the case though why does Shen got a gun show going on? Last a checked Ninja's favored speed over strength and wouldn't be being all muscled up. Malzahar the mage guy who sits back and cast also has a deck out set of guns. Gangplank as well got some big muscles going on and last I checked a lot of pirates where not really decked out, even in modern day pirates don't portray big muscle guys, and yet here it is in LoL.

I could go on but I don't think I need to I already know that no matter how much of this I point out you are going to give the same response "no your wrong see look at the boobies." It's pretty comical to me that the people who seem to be focusing on the parts of the female body most objectifed are the people who are supposedly trying to speak out against such objectification.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-17-2012
5 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
I don't understand why I have to be the focus of such vitriol for making a thread like this one. If people keep making the same thread week in and week out, doesn't that mean that the issue is still an issue?

Yes, a huge part of the community likes trashy champs because they like breasts. I don't hate on breasts in general. I hate on sticking breasts on champs that don't need them and a lack of variety. Does League want to expand even further and welcome a wider variety of people? They're going to have to display a wider variety of champs that appeal to a variety of different people.
No, it means some people have a very vocal opinion and want to express it until it is resolve to their personal satisfaction. That may or may not align with what is right for our game and our players.

Excuse me for a moment, I need to speak very candidly about this issue and I may be representing my personal (as opposed to Riot) views here;

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IronStylus has essentially mentioned that they're looking at fixing things like similar silhouettes and other shape-language that lessens variety - but while keeping a stylistic consistency to League of Legends. This character has a fish for a body, but you're so over-focused on the breasts issue that you can't see the forest for the trees. Therefore, this issue is not in the interest of the player-base from this perspective, but instead is a crusade of some social morality angle that doesn't have anything to do with game development.

All of the male characters (that we're happy with...) have strong musculature and other traditionally powerful, male features. All of our females have identifiable femininity in their forums, and that is played up or down based on the archetype. Nami is one of the better-received champion sneak peeks we've seen, so players enjoy it, and accomplishes variety from a lot of angles.

For context, did you know Miss Fortune is the most popular character among female League players? Sona is #2 - something that is appealing to the eye is more aspirational and has a higher "cool quotient" than things that are not - even without hormones in the equation (unless their cool is based on an opposing feature (Kog'Maw, for example)).

We want to offer variety, and earlier this year we talked a lot about improving that. A mermaid is pretty varied when compared to other female champions, and if it has breasts, or not isn't something I think is a focal point of things that actually matter - especially when we do have strong female characters like Diana, Leona or Riven.

The art team's thoughts as a whole may deviate from what I just posted (they know more about forms and shape language than I by miles), but if we do provide variety, and we do provide good alternatives to exposed characters, then from a holistic standpoint, I'd call that successful. If some people want to talk about the philosophic nature of how portrayal of gender in society effects video games, I'm not terribly interested in that conversation - I want to make what people like.


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Subzerosmokerain

Senior Member

11-17-2012

I think Morello has the right idea, make what people like.

It seems the vocal minority are thinking that their voice is the only voice that matters. (E.g., if people love playing ninja characters, then why not make more of those? And we have found that in Zed)


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Fayt Saotome

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
You know I think I'm just gonna copy/paste my original response to this kind of topic from another forum...
You sir win.


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GuiltyGecko

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
50 pages.. no way I can read every one of these posts. To sum up though, despite what you may think, I am not the single point of failure in a scenario where a busty lady makes it through our pipeline. I'm here to be one of many voices that chimes in when appropriate. Can I flip a table or two? Absolutely, if I deem it unnecessary. I really wasn't too terribly concerned about Nami because, well, I think she's a cool design.

Did I notice the ruffles revealing some fish flesh? Yeah, I saw it months ago. Did I think it was particularly a good idea to poo-poo the design when it was on its way, when it was gathering momentum, and when it was being passionately worked on by the artist? Hell no. This will be this particular artist's first champion ever in the game. It's her show in that regard. I didn't find the cleavage to be a monumental red flag.

When I saw the concept I was like.. look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think this concept's complete? Wouldn't you think she's the girl, the girl that has, everything? Look at those frills, how they unfold. How many wonders can one mermaid hold? Looking around here you think, sure, she's got everything. She's got flippers and scepters a plenty. She's got dashes and splashes galore. You want complementary curves? She's got twenty. But who cares, no big deal, she wants more.

She wants to be where the players are, she wants to see, wants to see them fighting, thinking inside of those, what do you call them? Oh, brains! Flipping to mid you don't get to far. Supports are required for healing, casting, strolling along on that.. what's that word again? Lane! Up where they toss, up where they stun, up where they lane all day in the sun, wandering free, wished she could be, part of that role.

What would she pay, if she could play, out of those waters? What sort of gift, would let her lift, up to the game? Betcha in the rift, they get the drift, that they appreciate their healers. Crowd controllers, supporting rollers, ready to sustain, and ready to help with Carry's job. Lock up the gankers and get some assists. What's a Baron, and how does it, what's the word? Buff! When's it enough? Wouldn't they love, love to play some support up above?

Out of the sea.

Wished she could be.

Part of that roll.



..tune in next time when I explain our champion creation process akin to how the mice put together Cinderella's dress.
Hey Morello, I am real happy for you, and imma let you finish, but IronStylus had one of the best GD forum post of all time! OF ALL TIME!


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-17-2012
6 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiIIerGecko View Post
Hey Morello, I am real happy for you, and imma let you finish, but IronStylus had one of the best GD forum post of all time! OF ALL TIME!
Agreed


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SomTingWong

Senior Member

11-17-2012

I wonder if Disney had this kinda problem when they released The Little Mermaid


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Icebender

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
50 pages.. no way I can read every one of these posts. To sum up though, despite what you may think, I am not the single point of failure in a scenario where a busty lady makes it through our pipeline. I'm here to be one of many voices that chimes in when appropriate. Can I flip a table or two? Absolutely, if I deem it unnecessary. I really wasn't too terribly concerned about Nami because, well, I think she's a cool design.

Did I notice the ruffles revealing some fish flesh? Yeah, I saw it months ago. Did I think it was particularly a good idea to poo-poo the design when it was on its way, when it was gathering momentum, and when it was being passionately worked on by the artist? Hell no. This will be this particular artist's first champion ever in the game. It's her show in that regard. I didn't find the cleavage to be a monumental red flag.

When I saw the concept I was like.. look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think this concept's complete? Wouldn't you think she's the girl, the girl that has, everything? Look at those frills, how they unfold. How many wonders can one mermaid hold? Looking around here you think, sure, she's got everything. She's got flippers and scepters a plenty. She's got dashes and splashes galore. You want complementary curves? She's got twenty. But who cares, no big deal, she wants more.

She wants to be where the players are, she wants to see, wants to see them fighting, thinking inside of those, what do you call them? Oh, brains! Flipping to mid you don't get to far. Supports are required for healing, casting, strolling along on that.. what's that word again? Lane! Up where they toss, up where they stun, up where they lane all day in the sun, wandering free, wished she could be, part of that role.

What would she pay, if she could play, out of those waters? What sort of gift, would let her lift, up to the game? Betcha in the rift, they get the drift, that they appreciate their healers. Crowd controllers, supporting rollers, ready to sustain, and ready to help with Carry's job. Lock up the gankers and get some assists. What's a Baron, and how does it, what's the word? Buff! When's it enough? Wouldn't they love, love to play some support up above?

Out of the sea.

Wished she could be.

Part of that roll.



..tune in next time when I explain our champion creation process akin to how the mice put together Cinderella's dress.
Oh my god I love you so much


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Ephemeral Wolf

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Honestly, I don't see why anyone would expect a mermaid without some amount of *** appeal. It's somewhat tied directly into the mythos of the mermaid itself. I feel that the artist who worked on this champion should feel very proud at having portrayed the mermaid in a relatively unique and interesting light. There are lots of subtle differences to notice if you stop staring at the breasts long enough.

On the topic of over sexualized females in League, I don't buy it. There's plenty of different body types, styles, whatever. If you think otherwise, sorry, you're wrong. I'm also willing to bet there will be more female champions released in the future that match what you find appealing, too.