Fix Blackfire please

First Riot Post
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ViolentlyCar

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cauldrath View Post
I'm not sure why CDR and magic pen were the things targeted, as those stats benefit further AP investment just as much as other sources of magic damage (although the pen does increase the value of stacking more pen, so this nerfs tri/quad pen builds). The major problems with it right now are that it is too good on champions who don't build a lot of AP and too good on DoTs, so changing the burn to only apply on a spell initially hitting and adding an AP ratio seem to be the logical choices.
I think Riot wants less of an emphasis on "stat sticks", so they'd rather target those stats more than the actual defining feature of the item itself. Perhaps I'm wrong, though.


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George W Nome

Game Designer

11-14-2012
10 of 10 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cauldrath View Post
I'm not sure why CDR and magic pen were the things targeted, as those stats benefit further AP investment just as much as other sources of magic damage (although the pen does increase the value of stacking more pen, so this nerfs tri/quad pen builds). The major problems with it right now are that it is too good on champions who don't build a lot of AP and too good on DoTs, so changing the burn to only apply on a spell initially hitting and adding an AP ratio seem to be the logical choices.
MPen is because Guise is already being changed for S3.
CDR because there's many more CDR options in S3.
Currently looking into potential solutions for DoT.


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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
MPen is because Guise is already being changed for S3.
CDR because there's many more CDR options in S3.
Currently looking into potential solutions for DoT.
Do what Half suggested. Remove DoT; add in Hextech's old Passive. TT's been griping about vision, Dom rather enjoyed the situational vision choice; kill three birds with one Passive swap. ^_~

It's a torch; by literal definition it'd make sense for it to provide illumination anyway. XD


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exe3

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Guise is getting "nerfed" for S3.
Ah yes forgot about that. Are those nerfs for Guise going through next patch or are you just jumping ahead to get BFT working?


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FioraIsMaiWaifu

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Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Sorry, I wasn't questioning your dedication to the map. It was more addressed to the Dominion community as a whole.

We're kind of in crunch mode for S3, so I don't want to focus too much on this thread anymore, as BFT is getting nerfed already (-5% CDR, -5 pen, -7 max charges, and possibly changes to burn application). But I do agree with you on promotional things--you have no idea how much I agree with you there. Yes, Dominion could use a lot more exposure, and much of the onus is on us (Riot) to give it that. We can talk more in-game.
Thank you for being open about the changes and the response.


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Ahlen

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
MPen is because Guise is already being changed for S3.
CDR because there's many more CDR options in S3.
Currently looking into potential solutions for DoT.
Are you adding more CDR for manaless casters then?

I'd rather you just remove the proc from blackfire, or put an ICD of 10 seconds onto it.


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Cherryboy916

Junior Member

11-14-2012

There seems to be two issues here, one of improving gameplay balance, and the other a matter of more than just popularizing the mode but saving it altogether.

As to the first issue of gameplay and balance, high elo player feedback is the way to go. You can't go wrong listening to the players who know the mode inside and out and have put in the most time playing it. I think we have this covered because most if not all the posters here are probably dedicated mid to high elo players if they are bothering to visit this forum.

As to the second and more important issue imo, the key question is who is quitting dominion? Old or new players, high or low elo? If I had to guess from the stories I hear about our own toxic version of elo hell, it's newer and lower ranked players, and I don't think the solution you are hearing here (ranked) will get to the core of the matter. Yes, ranked and its associated rewards will bring in more legitimate players and have a trickle down effect in popularizing meta strategies and such to the lower elos, however I don't think ranked will do anything to fix the rash of afk or no-load 4v5 or 5v4 matches I used to get working my way up the elo ladder. Totally demoralizing and emoragequit level nonsense.

I think the best way to solve this issue is to ask non-dominion players 'what would it take for you to actively play dominion?' I don't think you'll find the answer here, beyond the drumbeat for ranked.


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hotfire

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
MPen is because Guise is already being changed for S3.
CDR because there's many more CDR options in S3.
Currently looking into potential solutions for DoT.
My 2c: stick the burn % hp on another item so we can have a decent CD / AP guise upgrade, and people who want the DoT burn effect dont get all these delicious stats just because they're in the way


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Arance

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
And what changes are those?

What's your plan to stop Dominion from hemorrhaging players? What fixes can we do that addresses the concerns of the top 0.001% of the Dominion community that will fix the perception issues of the 99.99%?? What would you suggest we do to convince everyone that's quit on Dominion to come back? How do we message to players that Shaco isn't the best champ on Dominion? How do we address the complaint that a lot of players have of the lack of progression? The lack of game phases? The lack of differentiation from game to game? You focus on Blackfire Torch, but among the sea of real problems that Dominion has, that really should be barely a consideration. It's imba. OK, we nerf it next patch. Hell, I already did.

These aren't buzzwords. This is the reality of Dominion. We're in do-or-die mode. If you really love Dominion, then subscribe yourself to the program and dig down deep. The rug's going to be pulled out from beneath your feet over and over again, and you'll have to get used to that.
Warning, wall of text as I ponder on the high-level game objectives of Dominion.

These problems to me seem to stem from and be inherent in the map layout. Both teams have such easy access to defend/recap the two points on their side that four out of five capture points in the game serve such relatively little purpose that they only warrant a token bot laner with a rare gank. Back-door capping points has become a noob-trap so often that it can only be accomplished by a handful of champions and executed with impeccable timing. Timing which can range from hard to nigh impossible to discern depending on the enemies' mobility/range, vision of enemies, and how organized the teams are.

The lack of progression/game phases is also due to the map, which has a small size and static objectives; not just their physical location, which isn't necessarily a problem, but also how players prioritize them. SR by contrast has a much larger area with more varied phases, terrain and objectives: laning early with a side of dragon for cash, ganking/jungling mid game, baron, then eventually base pushing. CS really only has Windmill, so priorities, and thereby the active battlefield, only really deviate from it to quickly stabilize the team's 'home' points and rarely to provide a distraction to destabilize top.

Before discussing solutions, we first have to establish the essence and goals of Dominion. Dom, in my opinion, isn't about scores and points. Rather, it is about shorter, compressed games that cut out the boring fat of endless farming and dull gank-squad'ing (by which I refer to wandering SR in a group just waiting to catch someone out of position), leaving concentrated, near constant PvP gameplay with varied group sizes. The point objectives are really only necessary to ensure that players have something important enough to really commit to fights over.

So, with that established, how do we change things up? How to get people to shift focus more and fight over more of the map, while still really fighting? (As opposed to merely chasing after various objectives while avoiding real confrontation.) There's so many options to try and so little ways to properly judge their effectiveness (from a player's theory-crafting perspective). First off, it seems imperative to have at least one additional objective besides Windmill that is equidistant between teams. But what could pull people away from Windmill? Storm buff and its location in the center seems to be the most obvious, but the simple fact is that the buff isn't strong enough and is captured too quickly (partly thanks to the Fog) to be worth really contesting. Simply making it stronger until it becomes a real point of contention doesn't seem like it would be effective, either.

What if, and by this point I'm really just musing out loud, an 'Altar' similar to the ones in TT was placed in the center of the map. This Altar spawns ~5 minutes into the match, takes decently long to cap (tuned to prevent caps simply going to the recent fight winner automatically or an uncontested Shaco/Eve). Once it is capped it becomes locked for 1-2 minutes. Initially, its only worth 10 points to the team that caps it, but over the next 2 minutes that it sits there spawned, it slowly goes up, eventually becoming worth maybe 40 points. This creates an alternative objective that slowly grows in importance until becoming something really worthy of pulling players away from Windmill or bot lane for a bit, leaving these areas open for an attack. It also creates a dynamic for teams to decide if they wish to cap it later for greater potential rewards, or immediately to reset the Altar and deny their opponents.

Unfortunately, I can't say with any real certainty without extensive research and testing if this or any solutions would help to solve Dominion's issues. I agree that BFT being crazy OP pales in comparison to the real issues. But I don't believe item changes, any of them, will be able to solve much alone and it will require a fundamental change in the map.


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Catnium

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Senior Member

11-15-2012

remove storm buff .. turn map so its an upside down pentagram ( keep spawn points in same location as hey currently are : one left and one right hand side of the map ofc) .. than add 6th point in the middle
6th point can be either a 6th capture point or a TT style capture point.

turning the map will relocate the points in such a way that there are now 3 bottom of the map and 2 top of the map a 6th point in the middle will create a new objective that might actually be worth going for in stead of the opportunistic storm buff objective and because its in the middle of the map both top and bot will have access to the 6th "new"objective