Fix Blackfire please

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bierfaust

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
I'm personally of the opinion that Blackfire Torch has no place in this game due to it making many strong champions even stronger, and most balanced champions still balanced. It is a mess of an item, as I'm sure you'll have found today by spectating featured matches where even Malphites, Yoricks, and Urgots are using BFT with success.

Also, what was the point of reducing mana regen on this map? This didn't impact the top set of champions at all, but it did nerf the balanced and underpowered sets. Kha'Zix, Jayce, Diana, Darius, Maokai, Teemo, Lulu, Wukong and Jax are all still manaless champions as far as any competent player is concerned, and manatank Kassadin couldn't care less about regen. On the flipside, Viktor-level/style mages are having even more issues which the new items don't really help. Reducing the map's chalice effect only increased the distance between the OPs and the non-OPs.

Nome, we have a community here that has theorycrafted solutions and mathed out tons of options all the way since the beginning of the year. Feel free to ask us for feedback on ideas, because we have a lot of constructive discussion to give, and some of the high EU players are also here on the NA forums to centralize communication.
Have to agree with the mana comment. Even though I only played 1 game today as Darius, I didn't even notice the lack of regen. I was still easily able to bully the ranged carry that made the mistake of going bot against me.

Perhaps there is another avenue to look at for making the bully champions think twice about using a skill that costs mana. Im really surpised they haven't taken any of your advice in the past, as you definetly have the experience under your belt to comment.

Also, yeh as soon as I saw the passives on BFT I knew it would be stupid item on DOM. So many champions that can benefit from it that clearly do not need it, nor was it intended for them. e.g. Yorick.


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George W Nome

Game Designer

11-14-2012
2 of 10 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
I'm personally of the opinion that Blackfire Torch has no place in this game due to it making many strong champions even stronger, and most balanced champions still balanced. It is a mess of an item, as I'm sure you'll have found today by spectating featured matches where even Malphites, Yoricks, and Urgots are using BFT with success.

Also, what was the point of reducing mana regen on this map? This didn't impact the top set of champions at all, but it did nerf the balanced and underpowered sets. Kha'Zix, Jayce, Diana, Darius, Maokai, Teemo, Lulu, Wukong and Jax are all still manaless champions as far as any competent player is concerned, and manatank Kassadin couldn't care less about regen. On the flipside, Viktor-level/style mages are having even more issues which the new items don't really help. Reducing the map's chalice effect only increased the distance between the OPs and the non-OPs.

Nome, we have a community here that has theorycrafted solutions and mathed out tons of options all the way since the beginning of the year. Feel free to ask us for feedback on ideas, because we have a lot of constructive discussion to give, and some of the high EU players are also here on the NA forums to centralize communication.
Overall, I'm not too concerned about the immediate impact these changes have on the competitive/top-level Dominion community. You guys will adapt quickly, point out obvious issues, etc. I'm more concerned about shifting paradigms for the remainder of the 99% of Dominion players, and maybe even non-Dominion players who are looking to get a taste of "dat BFT imba".

I like to balance by hitting highs and lows first, then whittling it down closer. Inching only in one direction actually tends to be more disastrous, believe it or not. If BFT proves to be too strong (yes, it probably is), then it'll be changed one way or another. Ultimately, for the health of the map, I believe this is the way to go.


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DrytharStarthra

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Member

11-14-2012

Its my opinion that most of the tweaking that happens to champs, champs that are shared across many maps, is done by taking into consideration the high level play/competitive SR scene. With that in mind, shouldn't the changes made to Dominion take into consideration our high level/competitive scene as well? I mean I know you want to balance around the 99 percent which is the non-pro Dominion players, but that isn't the community's fault, its the fact that we've yet to have ranked Dominion. (which is a whole other topic).


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Das Strychnine

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrytharStarthra View Post
Its my opinion that most of the tweaking that happens to champs, champs that are shared across many maps, is done by taking into consideration the high level play/competitive SR scene. With that in mind, shouldn't the changes made to Dominion take into consideration our high level/competitive scene as well? I mean I know you want to balance around the 99 percent which is the non-pro Dominion players, but that isn't the community's fault, its the fact that we've yet to have ranked Dominion. (which is a whole other topic).
The thing is, no one copies the Dominion "pros", people in SR, if they see a professional player IE Froggen or Wickd play a certain champion, they'll immediately jump on the bandwagon and that champion would certainly become FOTM, as opposed to Dominion where most of the player base does pretty much their own thing, a great example of that is how 99% of Dominion players don't use Revive, think Kassadin is useless and Shaco is overpowered.


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George W Nome

Game Designer

11-14-2012
3 of 10 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrytharStarthra View Post
Its my opinion that most of the tweaking that happens to champs, champs that are shared across many maps, is done by taking into consideration the high level play/competitive SR scene. With that in mind, shouldn't the changes made to Dominion take into consideration our high level/competitive scene as well? I mean I know you want to balance around the 99 percent which is the non-pro Dominion players, but that isn't the community's fault, its the fact that we've yet to have ranked Dominion. (which is a whole other topic).
I don't want to discuss causation here, because that's not possible.

You're right and wrong on the champion tweaks. Most of the numbers-heavy changes are targeted towards the SR competitive scene, but the most work-intensive, thoughtful changes are directed towards the community as a whole. That's because they tend to involve issues that go beyond a few numbers.


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Orphane

Senior Member

11-14-2012

I think that given that BFT and Wooglet's are merely a hint of the itemization to come that we can hold off on the pitchforks and torches (okay no, get your Torches, huehue) until S3 itemization proper, as well as stat and mastery changes, hit the game. Remember, mastery changes and the changes to the way penetration works are likely to be sweeping changes as well as the truckload of items that presumably haven't been previewed yet.

Given that Nome is against the prospective Elesia's Miracle remake making it to Dom or TT, I think we'll be ok regarding item balance even if BFT is really screwy right now; at least BFT is encouraging people to play mages if only to see how far you can get with it on any given mage. :P

Also, from Xypherous:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Unfortunately, a lot of the S3 items will be turned off for Twisted Treeline, until that team reviews and decides what items are appropriate for the balance of the map.
Pretty sure that means Nome will be taking a look at any new items on Dom as well since that falls under his jurisdiction.


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Sauron

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Overall, I'm not too concerned about the immediate impact these changes have on the competitive/top-level Dominion community. You guys will adapt quickly, point out obvious issues, etc. I'm more concerned about shifting paradigms for the remainder of the 99% of Dominion players, and maybe even non-Dominion players who are looking to get a taste of "dat BFT imba".

I like to balance by hitting highs and lows first, then whittling it down closer. Inching only in one direction actually tends to be more disastrous, believe it or not. If BFT proves to be too strong (yes, it probably is), then it'll be changed one way or another. Ultimately, for the health of the map, I believe this is the way to go.
It's not that I was nitpicking the values, it's that I'm questioning the direction of attack. The chalice effect, for example, is something that didn't need changing, and reducing it is causing the opposite effect of what you're trying to do (balance APs), so it should probably be undone. While AP casters do need itemization, the number one thing throwing balance out of the window on this map is the easy stacking of defense.

Bruisers do their damage largely through base numbers + penetration on this map, and since a large portion of the gold gain is passive there's practically no penalty for building this way -- no need to be effective at last hitting minions or killing neutrals. Additionally, the defensive items far outclass the offensive items in terms of effects, such as Ninja Tabi and Frozen Heart, because their costs were balanced for SR. Furthermore, the passive penetration is allowing these tanky bruisers to succeed even more than they should be.

As much as any Dominion player doesn't want to admit it, the reason why so much is skewed on this map is because of the passive gold gain and nothing else. We can't, and should not, change this though because the passive gold gain is what makes Dominion, Dominion. What should be targetted instead is both the passive penetration and making replacement defensive items that are more clutch and less globally effective. It's one thing to get a Frozen Heart against a balanced team, but it's another to get Frozen Heart against a team with 4 mages simply because it's just so darn good, and the armor is useful anyways due to minions/turrets/lichbane/autoattacks.


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FDru

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostradamusss View Post
no old blacktorch was not too powerfull, it was ok. it had 20 less ap, no mpen, no CD, half damage from aoe than current blacktorch
I wasn't talking about the old Blackfire Torch, I was talking about the original one that never made it to live servers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Das Strychnine View Post
The thing is, no one copies the Dominion "pros", people in SR, if they see a professional player IE Froggen or Wickd play a certain champion, they'll immediately jump on the bandwagon and that champion would certainly become FOTM, as opposed to Dominion where most of the player base does pretty much their own thing, a great example of that is how 99% of Dominion players don't use Revive, think Kassadin is useless and Shaco is overpowered.
Consider that even if Dominion did have a pro scene, the way the map is designed prevents any solid meta from forming. Without a meta, low end players will not have anything to mimic. All they will see is possibilities, and diverse strategies that they don't know how to use effectively. Low end Dominion play is always going to be how it is now, IMO.


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Tempestphile

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
Consider that even if Dominion did have a pro scene, the way the map is designed prevents any solid meta from forming. Without a meta, low end players will not have anything to mimic. All they will see is possibilities, and diverse strategies that they don't know how to use effectively. Low end Dominion play is always going to be how it is now, IMO.
I somehow disagree

Low end play is getting better slowly. a good example is people start to realise how good Revive is

Also people start to realise standing on a turret AFK for defense is stupid


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Duelpower

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Hi my name is Ranged DPS, I'd like to take this time to thank nome for single handedly taking my position out of the game.

There is no reason to run a DPS anymore. Ranged AP champs with torch get the job done better and safer.


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