@Xypherous: Need some opinions on a "Souls" resource mechanic

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Phreak

Shoutcaster

11-11-2012
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I'll take a stab at this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youso1337 View Post
Here is my current iteration of the mechanic.
Grolla uses a new mechanic known as Souls. She receives a Soul every time she kills a unit, up to a maximum of three, also replenishing part of her supply of Souls if she remains out of combat for an extended period of time. Every time she uses one of her basic abilities, she expends a Soul. Her abilities do not require Souls to be cast, but if used without Souls, they will be significantly weaker.
First, word the impact better. This is basically Ferocity or Fury right now. "When he has Ferocity, they get a new cool effect" is much better than, "Sucks until you have Ferocity." In general, the core gameplay of 'Acquire resource, get stronger ability' is fine. Playtesting will tell you how well this resource allocation is balanced.
Quote:
Grolla also has a unique, optional item she can purchase called the Seyfarth Soul Gem, which augments her mechanics. It adds bonus magic damage to her basic attacks based on her level and the number of Souls she has, and increases the maximum number of Souls she can carry by one. It also can be activated to instantly give Grolla two additional Souls (2 minute cooldown), which can be useful in heated fights.
I have a minor issue with this: You have an item that strongly affects ability flow. Champions with things like Energy/Fury/Ferocity are different from champions with Mana. The above three are about pacing, and the pacing is determined through a lot of playtesting. Mana is more of a "don't spam stupidly" limiter. Having this item come through and muck it up is pretty bad, IMO. Compare to Rengar who does have a Ferocity bonus with Bonetooth Necklace, but note that it doesn't ever allow him to hit two Ferocity abilities in one combo: He exits stealth with one bonus move, and his full rotation puts him at 4/5. That's important.
Quote:
Grollschwert (innate passive)
Every time Grolla kills an enemy minion or monster, she receives 1 Soul. Killing enemy Champions gives Grolla 2 Souls, while assists give her 1 Soul. Whenever Grolla uses a basic ability, she consumes a Soul if she has one, enhancing its effect. If Grolla remains out of combat for 10 seconds, she will reset her Soul count to 1. Grolla can hold a maximum of 3 Souls at a time (4 if she has the Seyfarth Soul Gem).

For every Soul Grolla has, she receives 3/6/9/12 bonus AD. (Increases at levels 6, 11 and 16)
No reason to have this passive. As I said, the resource pacing will be determined by playtesting, so no comments there.

However, +AD for his resource is not great. Basically, you're telling the player he's nerfing himself by using abilities. This has a lot of impact: He'll want to always open with his highest AD-ratio ability even if it's not the right play, and he'll often want to not hit abilities at all in favor of just landing basic attacks.


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Lagginator

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AotW King View Post
I like the mechanic but I think the ulti should consume ALL THE SOULS and then let her use the other abilitys like she had souls for a duration. sounds more fun imo
I kinda agree with this guy because as you currently have it, your champ can open a fight with her ult to maximize its damage, or she can use it midway through a fight to regain souls and potentially do more damage with empowered skills. I think it should be more clear when the best time to use this champ's ult would be.


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DiamondHost

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youso1337 View Post
Kiting as a weakness might be a good thing. If she has too much power in all areas, she's OP. Giving her a weakpoint means she's not uncounterable.
once you look at the mobility creep...having kiting as her only weakness might also be a reason she would be considered unviable.


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Fell14043

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Something that might be cool:

Minions give regular souls, used as a resource.

Champions give Empowered Souls, used as a "powerup" to regular spells. Kind of like when Rengar reaches 5 ferocity.

Not sure how good of an idea it is, but I figured I'd share.


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Shiny Swinub

Senior Member

11-11-2012

I like this, actually. I wonder how functional she is as a jungler when she kills units to refresh soul count.


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Lagginator

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youso1337 View Post
Kiting as a weakness might be a good thing. If she has too much power in all areas, she's OP. Giving her a weakpoint means she's not uncounterable.
Yeah, but she has no way to mitigate it. Olaf and Trundle have skills to help with being kited and it's still a weakness for them. Olaf can ult, but if that's down he becomes a much easier target. Trundle has his "corrupt area" thing and pillar, but he can still be kited. Your champ doesn't really have anything like that.

Then again, I guess your champ would be more like Darius and just look to all-in enemies at every opportunity? idk.


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SculptorOvFlesh

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Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I'll take a stab at this:


First, word the impact better. This is basically Ferocity or Fury right now. "When he has Ferocity, they get a new cool effect" is much better than, "Sucks until you have Ferocity." In general, the core gameplay of 'Acquire resource, get stronger ability' is fine. Playtesting will tell you how well this resource allocation is balanced.

I have a minor issue with this: You have an item that strongly affects ability flow. Champions with things like Energy/Fury/Ferocity are different from champions with Mana. The above three are about pacing, and the pacing is determined through a lot of playtesting. Mana is more of a "don't spam stupidly" limiter. Having this item come through and muck it up is pretty bad, IMO. Compare to Rengar who does have a Ferocity bonus with Bonetooth Necklace, but note that it doesn't ever allow him to hit two Ferocity abilities in one combo: He exits stealth with one bonus move, and his full rotation puts him at 4/5. That's important.

No reason to have this passive. As I said, the resource pacing will be determined by playtesting, so no comments there.

However, +AD for his resource is not great. Basically, you're telling the player he's nerfing himself by using abilities. This has a lot of impact: He'll want to always open with his highest AD-ratio ability even if it's not the right play, and he'll often want to not hit abilities at all in favor of just landing basic attacks.
Stabbed at it.
PS: PIC WITH TEEMO HAT WHERe?!??


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Youso1337

Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I'll take a stab at this:

First, word the impact better. This is basically Ferocity or Fury right now. "When he has Ferocity, they get a new cool effect" is much better than, "Sucks until you have Ferocity." In general, the core gameplay of 'Acquire resource, get stronger ability' is fine. Playtesting will tell you how well this resource allocation is balanced.

I have a minor issue with this: You have an item that strongly affects ability flow. Champions with things like Energy/Fury/Ferocity are different from champions with Mana. The above three are about pacing, and the pacing is determined through a lot of playtesting. Mana is more of a "don't spam stupidly" limiter. Having this item come through and muck it up is pretty bad, IMO. Compare to Rengar who does have a Ferocity bonus with Bonetooth Necklace, but note that it doesn't ever allow him to hit two Ferocity abilities in one combo: He exits stealth with one bonus move, and his full rotation puts him at 4/5. That's important.

No reason to have this passive. As I said, the resource pacing will be determined by playtesting, so no comments there.

However, +AD for his resource is not great. Basically, you're telling the player he's nerfing himself by using abilities. This has a lot of impact: He'll want to always open with his highest AD-ratio ability even if it's not the right play, and he'll often want to not hit abilities at all in favor of just landing basic attacks.
Thanks for the critique, Phreak. Even if there are some glaring flaws in what I've made so far, it definitely helps me improve.

To note, though, Grolla's a SHE.

Guess I've got work to do. Based on your suggestions, here's my current to-do list for Grolla:

1. Change the description of Souls so it tells you that, if you use Souls, you get bonus effects. Leave the "not as good" part to inferring.

2. Change up the Soul Gem so that it doesn't have the active anymore, but still increases your Soul capacity. To replace the active, maybe the passive could also make it so that Grolla resets to 2 Souls instead of 1 when she's out of combat.

3. Change the passive so it gives a more reliable effect. Maybe something like "Grolla deals X% bonus damage versus Champions", without a reliance on how many Souls she has.

Thanks for the help, Phreak. Only unfortunate thing is that I can't really playtest this myself.


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cpmd4

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Need to avoid making the item required, would create a Viktor-like problem. Should be more like Rengar's item which is a choice. But I'm having trouble seeing the benefit of the item since half a minion wave will fully restore your entire resource. This takes 10 seconds max to prepare for a team fight, just like champions like Syndra or Heimer that need to prepare. Maybe the item would be useful in lane phase if you are zoned and having trouble getting last hits. But it would lose it's effectiveness as the game goes on.

Granting more souls for kills creates a Darius-like problem in needing to kill champs to get the full extent of your power, though if the cooldowns are high enough assists would be able to grant enough souls to be satisfied. So cooldowns would need to be fairly high, even for a resource-less champ since low cooldowns would make her hungry for more and more souls.

Quote:
If Grolla remains out of combat for 10 seconds, she will reset her Soul count to 1.
This ruins any chance of her preparing for a team fight by gathering souls. She now can only acquire them IN the actual team fight since she loses the souls out of combat. Not good, I suggest removing this part.

EDIT: Done of my post now, have at it.


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Ginga

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Recruiter

11-11-2012

Grolla? Grollschwert?


@TC: By any chance....does Rosenkreuz Stillete ring any bells?