Item Preview Dust Sweeping

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Tryphikik

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ploki122 View Post
A semi-competent laner will tell you where it's warded... even more if he has already warde (and then you can know the exact spot where the enemy warded
So tell me what exactly is stopping the Top Laner, Support, and Jungler from all getting sightstone. That accounts for THREE wards before factoring in the mid laner at all on each side of the river.

Top lane puts 1 ward in lane, 1 in tribrush(or river depending on side of map)... Jungler puts one on each side of mid lane enemy jungle exits. Support puts one in lane and one in tribrush(or river depending on side of map).

So how exactly are these semi-competent laners going to help you gank that by letting you know you have exactly zero ****ing chance of getting in unseen thanks to this ridiculously cost efficient ward item that even an idiot would buy unless you're nocturne or eve or something.

The way I see it... in league of legends, NOTHING can compete right now in that type of environment with something like Nunu/Udyr going Philo/Sightstone/Oracles. Farm junglers didn't need this to be more viable, they needed more gold from the jungle... All this does is completely evaporate most ganking junglers ability to gank.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
On MBR - If you were getting it hoping to counter tanky bruisers - you were doing it wrong. Almost every item combination involving PD / BT / IE would let you deal more damage to high health bruisers.

Why is that? Mostly because Carries aren't expected to have a linear damage curve whereas MBR is a linear effect. Secondly, the primary statistic for determining whether you were tanky or not was resistances not health. The difference between a carry's health and a tanky bruiser's health ranges less than 50% porportionally a lot of the time - thus attacking % health doesn't really help out all that much.
Champions who could benefit from MBR will not benefit from BotRK. This is a sad, but true fact. They scaled off of AS, not AD, so by giving a weaker version of the MBR effect, On-Hit champions are doing far less damage.

In addition, if one of these champions wanted to Lifesteal, they would get Zeke's which offers FAR more valuable stats to On-hit champs, or even split pushers. Plus, it adds team utility. MBR gives more damage, more pushing power, more tankiness than BotRK.

Also, if HoG gets removed, will Avarice Blade finally become useful?


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Mawootad

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Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Ionic Spark

Ionic Spark was a niche item made odd by the fact that much better options exist and it seems to fill an odd triple-niche: Survivability, On-hit, Wave clear. Who is this item supposed to be good on? It requires a very specific sub-set of characters (Tanky characters with zero wave clear that scales off attack speed) in order to be good - at which point it really starts to conflict with Wit's End for the same case.

Ionic Spark turns out to be a trap for most characters if you ever picked it up. It requires you to be ahead to be effective as the effect is highly conditional (every 4 hits.) It requires you to pick it up early as there's no scaling effect on the item (fixed magic damage). It requires you to be a specific sub-set of characters in order to be good in the first place.

A niche item with a huge set of conditionals, both champion-specific *and* context specific is an item that will never sit in a good place for very long as the thing that'll make it viable is most likely an abuse case that'll have to be nerfed in the future which makes all the other problems worse.
Most of the benefits of ionic spark are non-situational, though. Tankiness and attack speed synergize highly well with most tanky dps (in the same way that wits end synergizes with most tanky dps), and compared to wit's end, Ionic Spark provides significantly more attack speed, all-around tankiness, and significantly more extra magic damage during teamfights and quick harass. In lane and jungle it massively improves the champion's ability to clear camps/waves even if they're already packing aoe damage, and it additionally provides strong burst damage if utilized properly or a degree of easy, constant harass by simply autoattacking the wave to death. It was only added to SR a short time ago and people are only now starting to realize the power of the item, especially when it is also paired with wits end for great sustained damage, tankiness, and build path for a fairly low price. Ionic Spark is fun, unique, and powerful item and I would really suggest you consider against removing it.


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IckyBonez

Senior Member

11-09-2012

:c Getting rid of some items I like :'c

Should be a change for the best though..


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ploki122

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodbyeKings View Post
I have several issues with this.

One, FoN. In no way is this item confusing. Tanks did not build it for the move speed. They bought it for the MR and the sustain. The move speed was a great bonus, that helped with initiations and positioning. More move speed is not a bad thing. The stats on this item were amazing for any tank who needed to survive against magic damage.

Two, HoG. Removing this item not only removes much needed gold income for the more passive mana-less champs (Shen in any role, for example), but it also makes life harder for supports. Support champions are already squishy (for the most part), and can rarely survive burst. Taking away that extra health with effectively nerf every even slightly squishy support. They will be forced to buy a tanky item instead of a Gp/5... one that they may not normally buy. It's not about the final build. I (happily) never reach Randuins on my supports, in favour of wards and other items. It's about the gold generation.

I just think these are silly changes, to say the least. I understand wanting to shake things up, but these changes make very little sense. I would suggest taking another look at all levels of play before making these choices. Find out the real reasons players buy these items, and go from there. Just watching them press buy does not tell you anything.

First of all, I really have to disagree with you on FoN... it is confusing... you, more often than not, don't need all 3 stats, meaning it isn't quite clear if you need to buy this one, or if another one is better. First, you have a huge lump of MR, which means it is good against mages, but if you already had enough MR (let's say Wits' End + MoM + GA), I might not really need that additional lump... Next it gives hp5 that scales off health, but if I have low health, I am really paying a huge sum only for the premium... which means it is actually sub-optimal. And lastly, it gives MS... how many MS items are there? somewhere along the lines of 3, zeal, shurelia and FoN (+ now BoRK), meaning that if I actually want more movement, I'm pigeon-holed into shurelia (given the fact that I didn't want FoN and don't benefit form Zeal). So the actual move was to go boots3/5 and replace your boots with a new item with does the dame effect (so a tenacity item... trolololo)

As for HoG, they said they were revamping supports itemization, expect some health to pop in there (like on spiritstone, maybe.... oh and it actually have more gold generation potential than a gp5? kinda lovely, it pretty much balances off a gp5 if wards are dropped at 50g [which might actually happen, or at least 60g, otherwise, the stone is too viable, its premium is basically free])


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup0fTea View Post
My example was meant for top lane on blue side. There are other places were you could use your pink ward, like the river or even lane bush.

My real point is that it's not impossible for junglers to gank without being seen, even with the introduction of the Sightstone.

Think about it that way:
The jungler gets also one cause he has the money (FB maybe). He spends around 300-400g for not getting any stats but 2 permanent wards (that's what it nearly is). Now his top and mid don't have to buy wards. Support + jungle can ward all 4 entrances, and even when the enemy has an oracle, they don't lose too much cause they can go B and get knew ones without paying for them.

Now mid and top got a free g/10 stat cause they safe 75g every 3 min (25g per min while g/10 gives 30g per min).
The jungler spent 300-400g to give 2 solo lanes a free g/10 stat. But it doesn't start with +0 gold and ticks, but both start with +75 gold (*2 cause of 2 lanes and 2 wards) and then ticks.
It produces what riot wants to reduce: a jungler that strengthens the 2 solo lanes by making himself a partitial 2. support champ.


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JoeDerp

Member

11-09-2012

No more Madred's Blood Razor....
No more Ionic Spark....
No more Attack Speed on The Black Cleaver....
Why are we losing so much AS here?


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Moiser

Junior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
On MBR - If you were getting it hoping to counter tanky bruisers - you were doing it wrong. Almost every item combination involving PD / BT / IE would let you deal more damage to high health bruisers.

Why is that? Mostly because Carries aren't expected to have a linear damage curve whereas MBR is a linear effect. Secondly, the primary statistic for determining whether you were tanky or not was resistances not health. The difference between a carry's health and a tanky bruiser's health ranges less than 50% porportionally a lot of the time - thus attacking % health doesn't really help out all that much.
You want MBR to counter tanky targets, but as you say, the primary statistic for determing wether one is tanky or not is resists, and MBR's damage is reduced by magic resist.
The same problem lies in DFG, you build it to counter super tanky targets, but against those targets, it does way less damage anyway because they have much more magic resist than the squishies.

At the same time you complain on DFG that it makes burst champions (Eve before nerf, to name one) able to 100-0 squishy champions, and that makes it imbalanced. And MBR does super low damage because auto attack based champions usually don't buy any magic penetration.

Solution: Make the magic damage penetrate magic resist to some extent (50%?), or make it true damage altogether. This way, you can lower the base damage by a lot and still do high damage to tanky characters, and balanced damage against squishies.

As it is now: 20% max health as magic damage(5 hits of MBR or DFG with 100 ap) does 300 damage to both a 1500 hp 0 MR target (20%) and a 3000 hp 100 MR target (10%). You definitely want to use this on the 1500 hp target since you can burst him down instantly together with your other spells. The design of "counter guys with lots of health" doesn't work.


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Backup4now

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Please tell me Tiamat is still stackable, and still does AoE. If you ruin this retardedly powerful item, I'll never forgive you


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombifiedAngel View Post
No more Madred's Blood Razor....
No more Ionic Spark....
No more Attack Speed on The Black Cleaver....
Why are we losing so much AS here?
Cause there will be a whole new set of AS items next to PD and Wits End.