Item Preview – Dust Sweeping

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ploki122

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by aimless231 View Post
You say that the other gold items have upgraded build paths, but what about the basic items themselves? Specifically Kage's Lucky Pick and Avarice Blade?

Neither one of these items really provide great stats for support characters (excluding some AP harass champs like Lux that can be used in a support role). There are a lot of games as a support player that I would go triple GP10 (Philo, HoG, Kage's) and simply never turn Kage's into anything and sell it when the game went late enough.

And that doesn't begin to tackle Avarice Blade... which I've never built on any champion except Tryndamere in a tough lane matchup to get a little extra critical chance and gold income. I can't imagine any other champ (Gangplank maybe?) that would even consider this item.
Honestly, KLP is probably the most underestimated item... even though it doesnT' give a lot of AP, simply having that AP is really useful on a lot of champions (although HoG did outweigh it, but it's just cuz HoG was overly broken). Heck, I even rush it on Support lee sin (it offers ~1rank of damage for you abilities... which is neat early on).

As for avarice, my bet is that it is now either based off a new item, or based on Long Sword, my guess would be (Long Sword + 355g) = Avarice Blade (+13AD, 5gp/10s), 770 total cost. Right now GP5s are worth 750-825 (800 without HoG) and the gp5 premium varies from -115g to ~300 (225 without HoG). In this case, I based it off Long Sword, so it gives AD, added a small amount (so that the stats vs premium is way more on the premium side, meaning it isn't really viable to snowball an ADC) and estimated the premium to be worth slightly less than AP's (since gp5 synergizes better with APs), my guess is that I'm not far off the mark... unless, of course, a new variable comes screw it up (maybe a new item)


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David Hume

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Blade of the Ruined King also works well for on-hit ranged attackers, providing them a form of combat sustain that is independent of the amount of damage done by their main attack. On-hit Teemo or On-hit Kog’maws have traditionally fared poorly in being able to output sustained damage in a fight because life steal was so anti-synergistic with their builds. Blade of the Ruined King not only fits the % damage profile that Madred’s Bloodrazor once occupied but also supplies life steal for these character builds.
Xypherous, can you talk more about why (game health wise) it's good for ADC to have access to more lifesteal / movespeed / CC? GIving them the ability to cast Malphite Q w/ 50% spellvamp & AD scaling scares me a lot; I feel that as anyone without a gap closer, I wouldn't be able catch an out of position ADC if they can generate a 100pt+ms delta between us.

Sustain on ADC also bothers me; the worst part of being a burst assassin is sacrificing yourself (or just blowing all of your cooldowns as a burst mage) to deal 98% of the enemy carry's health, only to watch as they heal back half of that back in three autoattacks. Or as a slightly behind tank who just can't deal enough damage to hack through their lifesteal, even if you do everything right - separating them from their team, blocking their escapes, sticking to them like a bad batch of mochi - you can't actually /do/ anything to them. Once the enemy ADC crosses that point, it doesn't matter how well you tank and disrupt because short of stunlocking them to death, everything you do the ADC can ignore. (Especially bad since BotRK scales stolen health off of opponent HP: "Goddammit Mundo, if you hadn't bought that Warmogs Ashe would have died. We'd have been better off if you hadn't shown up to this fight.") I feel that the highest damage class shouldn't also have the highest healing.

BotRK being viable on ADC seems like it combines the most abusive parts of BT and PD, plus a slow.


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
On MBR - If you were getting it hoping to counter tanky bruisers - you were doing it wrong. Almost every item combination involving PD / BT / IE would let you deal more damage to high health bruisers.

Why is that? Mostly because Carries aren't expected to have a linear damage curve whereas MBR is a linear effect. Secondly, the primary statistic for determining whether you were tanky or not was resistances not health. The difference between a carry's health and a tanky bruiser's health ranges less than 50% porportionally a lot of the time - thus attacking % health doesn't really help out all that much.

Ionic Spark

Ionic Spark was a niche item made odd by the fact that much better options exist and it seems to fill an odd triple-niche: Survivability, On-hit, Wave clear. Who is this item supposed to be good on? It requires a very specific sub-set of characters (Tanky characters with zero wave clear that scales off attack speed) in order to be good - at which point it really starts to conflict with Wit's End for the same case.

Ionic Spark turns out to be a trap for most characters if you ever picked it up. It requires you to be ahead to be effective as the effect is highly conditional (every 4 hits.) It requires you to pick it up early as there's no scaling effect on the item (fixed magic damage). It requires you to be a specific sub-set of characters in order to be good in the first place.

A niche item with a huge set of conditionals, both champion-specific *and* context specific is an item that will never sit in a good place for very long as the thing that'll make it viable is most likely an abuse case that'll have to be nerfed in the future which makes all the other problems worse.
I don't use either of these items, so I don't personally care about their removal. I'm more curious about the reasoning that went into these decisions. So with that said...

Don't we already have several elements in the game that scale with level (smite, ignite, several passives)?

Did you consider the possibility of altering the effect of both these items to scale with level like smite/ignite? Seems like a logical step to address the issues you brought up. But I'm guessing there is more to it, could you explain how you concluded that wasn't the right direction?


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Iron Solari

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Nope - in this case, the bruiser in question should've gotten Wit's End instead - as they get similar damage and defenses for roughly half the cost.
Xyph, Any news on the implementation of a "support" tab, in the shop?


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Oxiizu

Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Manaless supports aren't something I'm sure is a good idea to support. There's a weird flow to manaless supports where if they *can* support effectively - then the only option left is to burst because sustaining / harassing are effectively free for them.

You can't burn down the mana bar of something that has no mana, essentially. It's a very dangerous concept in general.
Wouldn't high cooldowns at lower levels stop that?


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ploki122

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBubbIes0 View Post
The remaining three:
- Kage's Lucky Pick
- Philosopher's Stone
- Avarice Blade

Name one of these remaining three that is useful on a jungler like Lee Sin, Shyvana or Mundo. First 2 completely useless so we are forced to deal with useless avarice blade that builds into a worthless ghostblade end game where the rest of the junglers can have at least 2 out of 3 GP/10 and get unfair advantages over their enemy junglers in gold income.

For example compare Lee Sin to Jax jungling. Lee Sin can only benefit from avarice blade while Jax can build all 3 of them. Where is the balance in that ?

How will you address this issue ?
Read Statikk's post about jungle... /thread

Basically, ganking is not the only possible option anymore, you actually gain gold and xp from jugnling... so runnign gp5 and master-roaming isn't the only possible path. So basically, they offset HoG on junglers with jungle camps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxiizu View Post
Wouldn't high cooldowns at lower levels stop that?
cooldowns are already (meant to be) higher... since cooldown is the resource that mana-less users have to toy with. In case of energy (shen/lee) then simply making the cooldown longers are anti-synergetic with the energy concept (lower cooldown, but you don't have the pool to spam)


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hume View Post
Xypherous, can you talk more about why (game health wise) it's good for ADC to have access to more lifesteal / movespeed / CC? GIving them the ability to cast Malphite Q w/ 50% spellvamp & AD scaling scares me a lot; I feel that as anyone without a gap closer, I wouldn't be able catch an out of position ADC if they can generate a 100pt+ms delta between us.

Sustain on ADC also bothers me; the worst part of being a burst assassin is sacrificing yourself (or just blowing all of your cooldowns as a burst mage) to deal 98% of the enemy carry's health, only to watch as they heal back half of that back in three autoattacks. Or as a slightly behind tank who just can't deal enough damage to hack through their lifesteal, even if you do everything right - separating them from their team, blocking their escapes, sticking to them like a bad batch of mochi - you can't actually /do/ anything to them. Once the enemy ADC crosses that point, it doesn't matter how well you tank and disrupt because short of stunlocking them to death, everything you do the ADC can ignore. (Especially bad since BotRK scales stolen health off of opponent HP: "Goddammit Mundo, if you hadn't bought that Warmogs Ashe would have died. We'd have been better off if you hadn't shown up to this fight.") I feel that the highest damage class shouldn't also have the highest healing.

BotRK being viable on ADC seems like it combines the most abusive parts of BT and PD, plus a slow.

I agree 100%! Well stated and very legitimate concern that I feel is one of the biggest weaknesses in the game right now.


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gG Kaustic

Junior Member

11-09-2012

Any confirmation on whether you're removing Moonflair Spellblade or not?
It is by far the most worthless item in the game. Thoughts?


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Steven Mcburn

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Brb, filling my match history with matches on people of which I get ionic spark.

Tell me how worthless it is then ?.?


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DeathBringer7

Senior Member

11-09-2012

"

Quote:
Force of Nature - Removed

Force of Nature has been the go-to high MR item for tanks who want to counter magic damage. The item, however, is kind of confusing. Is it a movement speed option for fighters and tanks? Or is it meant to be a regeneration item in sieges? Force of Nature’s odd stat combination made it particularly difficult to make it feel like a quality purchase. One of its attributes was probably redundant or unnecessary on your character."
Your reasons are completly bogus/fake/unreasonable. It's just makes no sense why would you get rid of this item? It's so good on tanks, it boosts your health regeneration by tons...

I always buy it on Mundo, Amumu and few other champions as well...

PLEASE DO NOT GET RID OF THIS ITEM!

I will be deeply saddened and hurt.