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Grayboi

Recruiter

11-07-2012

i do and i don't like the new map :/
i like it because it was new, (and new things are exciting),
but the main thing for me that made my opinion change on the new map was:
1. the colors are dull
2. the game can change instantly
3. after the games on the new 3's map i didn't feel like i accomplished anything
4.champions are still very weak or still very op.

RIOT i have alot of memories with the old TT, the first game i ever played was with Soraka on that map and i fed like crazy because i didn't know anything!

I just want it to be aware that alot of people have memories on that map and it will be forever missed. Please have a second thought on what you are doing!


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Sessamo

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phallicies View Post
see the problem with that analogy is that you're assuming once consumed its gone forever. its more like buying a newer sleeker faster sports car when your old normal one works just fine. Except, you park the old one in your back yard near the dumpster and destroyed the keys to the car. So no one else can drive that car you enjoyed that works perfectly fine, but isn't *new*. You could just drive both cars whenever you felt like it, if you left it in the driveway, but no, you parked it in the back and destroyed the keys to the car.

The older car needs some new parts eventually as do all cars, but just because you buy a newer one doesn't mean you throw the old one away.
Problem being the older map didn't work "just fine"
It wasn't horrific, I played a ton of games on old treeline, but to fix it's problems it honestly had to be scrapped.
The bases and jungle had to be completely torn down. RNG camps are a complete nightmare. Wriggles was a god-tier item.
If you're really going to quit before they have even a single balance patch to adjust current TT you're welcome to, but I think it's extraordinary juvenile.


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Exqzr

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Kitsune,

You are using predetermined logic.
I.e. you already decided what the outcome of your logic would be and made it fit.

We are not asking for a step back. Not at all. We are asking for both maps.

by giving a new impala and hence a shiny new car, that's great! Maybe we'll buy one.

But, I wonder if they came out with a new car and then overnight took all the old impalas out of peoples driveways and replaced them with the new ones and said "look, its better its what you asked for..." Ah no. We did not ask for a shiny new car that is so full of mechanical defects it is essentially a Lemon. And we never asked for less maps or maps at status quo. We want more maps, more choice. More bang for our buck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune Senpai View Post
I don't want to argue this point further. I will now defeat you with your own name. The logical fallacy presented in my opponents case is the fallacy known as the bandwagon which is: Appealing to popularity or the fact that more people like/do something as an attempt at validation. This is not true it breaks one of logic's oh so sacred rules. The second issue here is your mis-persecption of time, I'm sorry but my skills in debate are not great enough to find the fallacy for this one. You believe, or your last statement leads me to believe that you.... believe, that this hasn't already happened. It has. You it is not 2013 but the 2013 Chevy Impala has been designed, you can't change that now, it's hit the show room floor, or should shortly. This has been made from a design perspective it exists and is the next step in design, period. To further this argument this beta is out, the public has seen it and we can no longer go back on this, we can only take pieces. Progress marches forward and we have little control of that. This is done. The decision has been made. You cannot argue or talk from a perspective of something that is over. You can't say after you bomb Japan that we should go back on the decision. The design of this map was not conducive to the idea that it was based off of. Riot argues that this map is everything they wanted in TT originally and you argue that this map hasn't happened and ignore the design document, the original idea about this fast paced gank heavy game type.


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Geekweezul

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exqzr View Post
Geek,

AT this point you could call me an Anti Riot Extremist as you and anyone else would be if RIOT did the same thing to SR as they did to TT.
Look, I understand the frustration. My argument is that your frustration is clouding your logic.

Also, I couldn't care less what they do with SR. It's old and boring. And, I'd be fine with an update or overhaul of Dominion as well even though I like that map. Maybe I wouldn't like the new version, but I would understand why they wouldn't want more than one version out there.

Quote:
I call you a Riot Fanboy because you take whatever they say as the absolute truth.
No, I do not. You just want to lump me in some group because I disagree with you and it's easier for you to write me off as a fanboy.

Quote:
Like for example how having both maps would split the community. They have 13 million players a day! In comparison. Pox Nora, which has 500, easily supports 5 maps.
13 million players a day who mostly play SR. Come on, you're smarter than that. If there were oh so many TT players, why wouldn't they make TT a competitive staple in tournaments? Because it was a flawed map with very few players.

And you're just thinking of the average players for TT. Do you know how long plat players have to wait in queue for SR? And SR has millions upon millions of players. Can you imagine a plat player in a split TT map queue?

Is Pox Nora set up like LoL?

Quote:
It has nothing to do with splitting the community and everything to do with an agenda that RIOT has.

Once you realise that, then you can stop feeling like RIOT is your buddy. Really, RIOT is owned by a Chinese company that has nearly 700 million customers. It's about the bottom line. They don't want to bring in the Classic TT because of the cost to administrate it. That's it. The only way it will come back is if they feel it will cost them more to not have it.
Look, I don't think Riot is my buddy. And how much would it seriously cost to make the map available? It's already made. A couple more servers? It's not like there are enough players to warrant any huge additions to the server load. I think you're over-estimating the cost of keeping it in the game.

Quote:
If you enjoy the new map GREAT. Play it to your hearts content. But the vast majority of long time TTers don't like it. Even those that do like it, don't want the old one shelved. Consumer CHOICE is NEVER bad customer service. Whereas, selling skins and champions based on being able to take them into a game mode that has been around for years and then subsequently removing that mode is the WORST kind of customer service.
Consumer choice is sometimes a bad choice when the overall effect of consumer choice ruins the game for most consumers.


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Lemurialol

Senior Member

11-08-2012

I love how he said it's still twisted tree line. No it's nothing like it.

I like the new "shadow isles" better. But still... what he said is so untrue.


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Infirc

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FistingPuppets View Post
3v3 used to take on average 15-25 minutes. The moment TT was remade, people forgot how to play the game. The objective is to destroy the other team's Nexus. Now, it is about jungling, controlling altars and wasting time!

I have yet to play a 3v3 that didn't take 30 minutes. I play this game because I enjoy(ed) it. That does not mean I have hours a day to play like some people. I liked that fact that I could get a few games in during an hour period so that I could get on with my life!

Unhappy, but hey, I don't sign the paychecks, so I deal...
i managed to win a Ne tt games at the 12 minuts mark when new tt came out, how? we jsut pushed and gave no **** about altars (not tremendously viable but still valid with some comps and situations) got the first tower at 7:39 second turret at around 10 minuts, nexus turret at 12 mnutes and won the game thereafter,
the teams are just way too focuse don getting altars since tt is a new map, give it time for it to stabilish and you'll see games dropping to 15-20 minutes again.


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Phallicies

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exqzr View Post
Kitsune,

You are using predetermined logic.
I.e. you already decided what the outcome of your logic would be and made it fit.

We are not asking for a step back. Not at all. We are asking for both maps.

by giving a new impala and hence a shiny new car, that's great! Maybe we'll buy one.

But, I wonder if they came out with a new car and then overnight took all the old impalas out of peoples driveways and replaced them with the new ones and said "look, its better its what you asked for..." Ah no. We did not ask for a shiny new car that is so full of mechanical defects it is essentially a Lemon. And we never asked for less maps or maps at status quo. We want more maps, more choice. More bang for our buck.
This is what i was trying to get across, we aren't trying to move backwards, more maps and more choices is all we ever wanted, we never argued 3's had some issues, but if everyone used them, it no longer became an issue, more of a strategy. its why currently Darius is Darius tier in new 3's. he's part of the strategy though he's an issue, same with turtling and other old strategies.

Simply replacing it all together is not the solution, keep modifying it in small amounts so you still know its the same thing. so eventually that 2010 chevy impalla becomes the 2013 by replacing the parts one/two at a time.


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Exqzr

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Hey Phallicies,

I'm at a loss here. I admit, I must, have clouded logic as Geek suggests. The general debate goes like this.

TT Community: "Riot thank you for the new map but A lot (most?) of us prefer the old one. This new one does not have the same vibe".

Minority Response: "Stop complaining and give us feedback as to why".

TT Community: "We'll here are 20 or so things we don't like. But mostly its the hyper aggressive play style this map caters to".

Minority: "The map is new give it a chance to get better. Besides you're just afraid of change."

TTers: "We are not afraid of change. We like progress. But this is not what we asked for. This is something completely different.

Minority:" Too bad then. Get over it. the new map is way better."

TTers: "O.k. fine, if you like the old map, please play that and have fun! We won't try to convince you the new map is not better for you, please don't try to convince us the new one is better for us - how about we make everyone happy and have both maps?".

Minority and RIOT: "Sorry, we can only have one map, because having two would split the community"

TTers: "Ah Hello? The community is already split and in a significantly worse way than if you kept both maps. Please let us play on the old map or we won't want to support RIOT".

Minority (said) and Riot (inferred). "To be honest, the TT community is too small for us to really care if you are unhappy or not. You're just going to have to work with us to make the New map more palatable, it's your only option."

Folks, even if you LOVE the new map and even if you believe that in a community of 13 million players 5 maps is too many. How can you not advocate for variety, choice and good customer service?

It boggles my mind. It's true I am very confused that people think having the Classic TT, at least in custom games would be harmful to the TT community.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Phallicies View Post
This is what i was trying to get across, we aren't trying to move backwards, more maps and more choices is all we ever wanted, we never argued 3's had some issues, but if everyone used them, it no longer became an issue, more of a strategy. its why currently Darius is Darius tier in new 3's. he's part of the strategy though he's an issue, same with turtling and other old strategies.

Simply replacing it all together is not the solution, keep modifying it in small amounts so you still know its the same thing. so eventually that 2010 chevy impalla becomes the 2013 by replacing the parts one/two at a time.


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Geekweezul

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Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exqzr View Post

Minority and RIOT: "Sorry, we can only have one map, because having two would split the community"

TTers: "Ah Hello? The community is already split and in a significantly worse way than if you kept both maps. Please let us play on the old map or we won't want to support RIOT".

Minority (said) and Riot (inferred). "To be honest, the TT community is too small for us to really care if you are unhappy or not. You're just going to have to work with us to make the New map more palatable, it's your only option."

Folks, even if you LOVE the new map and even if you believe that in a community of 13 million players 5 maps is too many. How can you not advocate for variety, choice and good customer service?

It boggles my mind. It's true I am very confused that people think having the Classic TT, at least in custom games would be harmful to the TT community.
It wouldn't be as harmful to the community as it would be to Riot. Yes, it would split the queue even more, but more than that they would now have to try and balance both maps. The original TT was already severely imbalanced. While Shadow Isle TT is imbalanced, I don't think it's as bad as the original TT and that it can tweaked and fine-tuned better.

And I looked into your PoxNora game. Instead of the 500 players you claim it had, it has at least 1800 (that's as far as the rankings went). And, it only supports 1v1 games. So yeah, it wouldn't take long to get a game there. Whereas TT needs 6 players with the community already split between solo queue and ranked, SR/Dominion needs 10 players with the community split between solo queue, draft queue, and ranked, and then part of the community playing Proving Grounds in custom games. Adding another map just splits it even further.

Were you talking about there are only 500 players online at any given time? If so, then you need to stop mentioning that there are 13 million players in LoL, and start mentioning how many are online at one time...which is significantly less than 13 million.

I'm not saying you guys shouldn't be frustrated. I'm not saying you need to like this new map. I just don't think you fully understand why Riot is not allowing both.


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Waverhouse

Senior Member

11-20-2012

If the only things wrong with original TT were turtling and random jungle camps, why not just add a wall in original TT and make the jungle camps more structured?


Nah let's scrap the whole thing and make Dominion 2.0. Then when everybody gets bored of that like they got bored of Dominion let's do the same thing all over again.