Well here is e-mail from riot

First Riot Post
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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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11-08-2012
3 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vahlen View Post
Lyte, this is the type of information that needs to be available to players.

It's something that I personally am constantly concerned about, even though I make a very real effort to be a positive part of the team there is still that worry that I am either not doing enough OR being falsely reported due to my performance/champion pick.

This issue could easily be addressed by customer support if they would just stop sending those damn copy/pasted emails, it's extremely unprofessional and sends the message that you just don't care.
On NA, 98% of players will probably never see the Tribunal. It's unreasonable to ask Player Support to respond to random requests from players who are worried about their 'status.' Just play the game, be honorable and don't be a jerk.

It's not that Player Support doesn't care--it's just not something the average player needs to worry about and answering your ticket means 2000 more come in.


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Vahlen

Senior Member

11-08-2012

This is what I thought the Tribunal was supposed to be for, taking abusive players like I used to be, helping them to realize that their behavior was unacceptable and changing it for the better. It's only working for me because I am constantly analyzing my in-game behavior and trying to correct any undesirable behavior I may exhibit. Even then though I do mess up sometimes or miss certain behavior, why do I have to "wait" to be punished to correct that behavior I missed?

I've emailed support a couple times just trying to check on my behavior and ways to improve it, only to be met with a slew of standard format responses.......I already understand the summoners code etc...so how does sending me that help anyone?


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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11-08-2012
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornchowdar View Post
So, assuming we have been falsely banned, do we have guaranteed recourse? At least, that's what I get from the bolded part.

Having searched the forums for a while for such cases, I've come across a few where people have been banned unjustly and haven't been unbanned, or gotten a direct reply from a red.

One of them happens to have posted on this very forum under the name gunflamesmurf and I've compiled a list myself and posted it on the general forums for your scrutiny.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../5799323/#nogo

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/tribu...e/324966/#nogo

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/case/5831411/

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/5826227/

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/5796526/

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/5796526/

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/tribu...e/360451/#nogo

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/269019/

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/tribu...e/314845/#nogo

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/5756146

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/tribu...e/393928/#nogo

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../5896613/#nogo


I will admit some are touch and go, but there are others that are pretty clear cut errors on the tribunals part.

Edit: Just a second to filter out the warnings from the bans and fix urls.
I saw your original thread with those links and I hand-reviewed almost all of them during one of my lunch breaks. I wouldn't really overturn a single one.

You have to remember that to even get to the Tribunal is pretty difficult; right now, the average player sent to the Tribunal is in the bottom 0.6% in terms of toxicity in the NA territory. This is also one of the reasons we decided to manually review a handful of cases in the bottom 0.7% to 0.8% of accounts and escalate accounts where necessary.

In saying this, I can see which accounts are smurfs and which account are newbies, I can see which accounts are trying to 'fake' innocence and pull up pre- and post-game chat. There's maybe 1 case in that thread where I'm ambivalent, but the player only got a warning that I believe will make a difference in that player's behavior so I wouldn't overturn the warning anyway.

I know you're probably thinking, "Well, give us that extra information that you have then!" However, it's not that simple. There's privacy laws and related issues that vary from region to region and what's OK in North America might not be OK in a country in Europe. Each additional piece of information also requires development work and we have to constantly weigh our priorities and determine what's the best value we can provide to you, the players. Ultimately, for some reason or another, players came to the same decision we would have if we manually reviewed the case with all the extra information that we have at Riot--even though players had less information to begin with.


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Vahlen

Senior Member

11-08-2012

I have to get back to being productive since I'm at work, so I must excuse myself from this conversation. However, I would really enjoy hearing from you Lyte, or anyone else on your staff about my behavior. I like to think of myself as one of the very few who make real prolonged changes in their behavior, and would like to continue to do so.


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Settero

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vahlen View Post
I have to get back to being productive since I'm at work, so I must excuse myself from this conversation. However, I would really enjoy hearing from you Lyte, or anyone else on your staff about my behavior. I like to think of myself as one of the very few who make real prolonged changes in their behavior, and would like to continue to do so.
seriously , did u not read his post ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
On NA, 98% of players will probably never see the Tribunal. It's unreasonable to ask Player Support to respond to random requests from players who are worried about their 'status.' Just play the game, be honorable and don't be a jerk.

It's not that Player Support doesn't care--it's just not something the average player needs to worry about and answering your ticket means 2000 more come in.


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MustachePredator

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

I got a permaban on this account for being in the .2% of the most toxic players, even though I haven't been banned by the tribunal in 5-7 months. Recent bans are due to me leaving games with my unsteady connection which has been fixed. But oh well permaban is a permaban. I troll sometimes saying "mid or feed" but I never actually do it and I only did this in ranked. Its like streamers saying "**** you" in pregame chat they are just messing around and so am I. Now there have been cases where i completly went off on some guys in game which I should be ashamed for but straight to a permaban just doesn't seem fair to me.

In normals I do dual mid or dual top, and I get raged at and reported im 100% positive of this. I guess you CAN be PERMABANNED for going against the meta just because others get upset. Thats my conclusion otherwise if I was so bad and verbal abusive the tribunal would have banned me by now, but nope haven't been banned in over 5 months by it. GG RIOT.

@lyte if you could show me my past tribunal reports I would love to see them, and see how many agreed to pardon me.


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TrolImanship

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I know you're probably thinking, "Well, give us that extra information that you have then!" However, it's not that simple. There's privacy laws and related issues that vary from region to region and what's OK in North America might not be OK in a country in Europe. Each additional piece of information also requires development work and we have to constantly weigh our priorities and determine what's the best value we can provide to you, the players. Ultimately, for some reason or another, players came to the same decision we would have if we manually reviewed the case with all the extra information that we have at Riot--even though players had less information to begin with.
So it's not disturbing to you that Tribunal users are voting en masse to punish people with absolutely no legitimate evidence of wrong-doing available to us at all?


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cornchowdar

Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I saw your original thread with those links and I hand-reviewed almost all of them during one of my lunch breaks. I wouldn't really overturn a single one.

You have to remember that to even get to the Tribunal is pretty difficult; right now, the average player sent to the Tribunal is in the bottom 0.6% in terms of toxicity in the NA territory. This is also one of the reasons we decided to manually review a handful of cases in the bottom 0.7% to 0.8% of accounts and escalate accounts where necessary.

In saying this, I can see which accounts are smurfs and which account are newbies, I can see which accounts are trying to 'fake' innocence and pull up pre- and post-game chat. There's maybe 1 case in that thread where I'm ambivalent, but the player only got a warning that I believe will make a difference in that player's behavior so I wouldn't overturn the warning anyway.

I know you're probably thinking, "Well, give us that extra information that you have then!" However, it's not that simple. There's privacy laws and related issues that vary from region to region and what's OK in North America might not be OK in a country in Europe. Each additional piece of information also requires development work and we have to constantly weigh our priorities and determine what's the best value we can provide to you, the players. Ultimately, for some reason or another, players came to the same decision we would have if we manually reviewed the case with all the extra information that we have at Riot--even though players had less information to begin with.
While it is comforting that you did review them and they might have been justified, there is still a lack of clarity on the issue of automation within the system and how much support we are guaranteed.

Since it is obvious that the tribunal can make bad decisions, as evidenced with some pardons and the cases I linked (from the information the tribunal was provided), do players have guaranteed Riot review for time bans?

Even if they have to be appealed, i.e. submitted to Riot support for it to be reviewed, it would provide a lot of us with closure on the issue, since we are afraid of being banned for something we didn't do and potentially losing our investment in the game for nothing.


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EndlessDeath

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I saw your original thread with those links and I hand-reviewed almost all of them during one of my lunch breaks. I wouldn't really overturn a single one.

You have to remember that to even get to the Tribunal is pretty difficult; right now, the average player sent to the Tribunal is in the bottom 0.6% in terms of toxicity in the NA territory. This is also one of the reasons we decided to manually review a handful of cases in the bottom 0.7% to 0.8% of accounts and escalate accounts where necessary.

In saying this, I can see which accounts are smurfs and which account are newbies, I can see which accounts are trying to 'fake' innocence and pull up pre- and post-game chat. There's maybe 1 case in that thread where I'm ambivalent, but the player only got a warning that I believe will make a difference in that player's behavior so I wouldn't overturn the warning anyway.

I know you're probably thinking, "Well, give us that extra information that you have then!" However, it's not that simple. There's privacy laws and related issues that vary from region to region and what's OK in North America might not be OK in a country in Europe. Each additional piece of information also requires development work and we have to constantly weigh our priorities and determine what's the best value we can provide to you, the players. Ultimately, for some reason or another, players came to the same decision we would have if we manually reviewed the case with all the extra information that we have at Riot--even though players had less information to begin with.

TYVM for reviewing gunflamesmurfs case and responding, it helps to know that you don't find him "innocent" although I really would like to know what he did to get himself banned that wasn't in the chat logs for that tribunal case, this at least to me was very helpful to put my mind somewhat at ease with the situation.


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Goth Skunk

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Good lord, Lyte...

When do you SLEEP?!