Rengar Overnerfed?

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Bungboy

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

http://www.lolking.net/champions/rengar#statistics

Base Health Regeneration reduced to 4 from 8
Health Regeneration per level reduced to 0.4 from 0.8
Bonetooth Necklace no longer grants a base +10 Attack Damage
Savagery Empowered Attack Damage ratio reduced to 2.0 from 2.5
Thrill of the Hunt
Stealth duration reduced to 5 seconds from 7
Cooldown increased to 140/105/70 seconds from 120/85/50

-10% win rate from what he previously had? He was definitely overpowered before, but his empowered Q ad ratio being lowered from 150% to 100% seems like way too much of a nerf when you consider that his ult cd and duration, health regen, and his item got nerfed in the same patch as well. I think the Q ratio needs to be brought back up. He already didn't scale that great into lategame before the nerf. Now he really needs to somehow snowball hard early to pose a threat, except he lost a chunk of his burst from his empowered Q so that isn't going to happen much.

Also, a 140 second cooldown for 5 seconds of stealth (that doesn't even work if they have an oracle or some pink wards) is kind of ridiculous. The duration being reduced makes sense since it should be used more to actually hunt down high priority targets, not just backdoor and run away but I'm really questioning the cooldown nerf.


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Balerion

Member

11-07-2012

It's extremely hard to balance a champion like Rengar. You either end up buffing him too hard (Like before) or nerfing it too hard.


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Dyzmatik

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Riot is doing the WRONG THING, instead of nerfing his empowered r completely, we should give him the Wukong style Q and do 110% damage on regular savagery (1.1 scaling) and 120% extra damage on empowered Q.

That way rengar won't be insanely dependent on raw damage from empowered Q, yet he won't fall off without empowered moves late game.

Next is the health regen nerf,I thought it wasn't very necessary, but it could have been nerfed. What Riot did was overnerf it, and it affected rengar's gameplay greatly, it always forced him to empower heal after trades, because innate heal wouldn't suffice thus again nerfing his damage.

What I saw WASN'T very well explained was the nerf on Rengar's private item Bonetooth necklace.

It wasn't a very viable item naturally, because it was a stacking item, and the damage it provided after the first nerf was already low, unless you were level 8 or higher, now after the latest nerf, it remains greatly unviable unless you KNEW you could get the stacks early.

36 Damage lategame at level 18 for 800 is great, but there is always a much better viable item if you purely want damage and the extra stats were small, but decent.

It was like a Doran's blade that stacked. It gave all these little extra stats but always sold off for better items lategame.

Finally, his ult nerf, WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU NERF THE DURATION?

Riot said rengar always escaped or initiated too easily with his ultimate, so their solution was to nerf the cooldown.
- moderately balanced -

but why nerf the duration? This actually now greatly affected rengar's ganks, especially if the enemy team has pink wards down in the river, 5 seconds is simply not long enough for you to come from the river and to pounce on someone even if they don't have wards in the river.


My personal solution to all of this.

Regular savagery does 1.1 scaling damage, and his a bit farther AA range than regular attacks, while empowered savagery does 120% extra damage instead of the old 150%
Take away the attack speed buff and put it on the W, so the synchronization with the extra MR and Armor will make this seem like a much better steroid. I also find the odd numbers on the extra MR and Armor buff on W to be...irregular, my idea is to put a flat 10+ mr and armor every level.
so it would be 10/20/30/40/50 boost per level, making it more strong lategame and not an extreme lifesaver early game.

Nerf on base health regen and scaling health regen increased to 6 and .6 from 4 and .4

Stealth cooldown ( to me) isn't that huge of a problem. Do they seem long? Yes, but again it isn't a huge problem. It just forces you to calculate what actions you'll take in the lane more efficiently.

The duration should be raised back to 7, because Rengar should be able to escape when using his ultimate and not killed by intuition when running away.
What do I mean by intuition?

Simple guessing logic on where Rengar will go when escape from enemy team with stealth on.

Running away from one person with ultimate isn't hard, but the keyword was team. If the enemy team is communicating and actually watching where you'll likely be headed, then many times you can get caught off-guard when you're recalling after escaping away.



I also think they need to buff his passive and give him maybe 10% bonus speed when going through brushes to help him chase in the jungle more, as rengar can be easily kited unless in range for the leap.


Every example listed her was from my OWN personal experience, and realize that everyone may have different play-styles with rengar whether playing him top, jungle, or even as adc, with his bursting potential.


Sorry if some of this sh*t doesn't make sense, i wrote this at 2 in the morning.


Edit; Hi, I'm not a upvote *****, but I'd atleast like a good reason or reply or a decent conversation on where you disagree with me, not just ''OMFG RENGAR IS FACEROLL NOOB CHAMPION'.


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Bungboy

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

@ the above poster, I agree with most of your suggestions, except for the ult duration. I don't think his ult was intended to be used for running away. Sure people do it often, and that's fine- but I don't think riot wanted a tanky bruiser to be able to disengage from an entire team with as much ease as he used to be able to, so they decreased the duration on it to make it easier to "walk the killer's path". Which brings me back to why I think the cooldown should be reverted, and not the duration. And it's actually a good 8 second stealth if you have a fully stacked bonetooth necklace, so if you're doing really well and you don't want to get shut down, it'll help a lot with running away.

And lol why did I get downvotes? I asked a legit question, trying to start a discussion. His win rate is currently 45% or worse, and I didn't even play/own him prenerf so I'm obviously not trying to make him overpowered again.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Yes, Rengar was overnerfed. Riot should give a little back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IonDragonX View Post
Rengar needs some of those nerfs retracted, really. His Q has now been nerfed twice, his W twice, his R twice, his item nerfed once and his health regen once. This is not including the nerfs to his item before he got out of BPE. That is a huge amount of nerfs.
I'd suggest putting half of his health regen back, half of his R duration back and the +10 back on his item. Alternatively, make his item cheaper (475).


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ViperKilo

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyzmatik View Post
Riot is doing the WRONG THING, instead of nerfing his empowered r completely, we should give him the Wukong style Q and do 110% damage on regular savagery (1.1 scaling) and 120% extra damage on empowered Q.

That way rengar won't be insanely dependent on raw damage from empowered Q, yet he won't fall off without empowered moves late game.

Next is the health regen nerf,I thought it wasn't very necessary, but it could have been nerfed. What Riot did was overnerf it, and it affected rengar's gameplay greatly, it always forced him to empower heal after trades, because innate heal wouldn't suffice thus again nerfing his damage.

What I saw WASN'T very well explained was the nerf on Rengar's private item Bonetooth necklace.

It wasn't a very viable item naturally, because it was a stacking item, and the damage it provided after the first nerf was already low, unless you were level 8 or higher, now after the latest nerf, it remains greatly unviable unless you KNEW you could get the stacks early.

36 Damage lategame at level 18 for 800 is great, but there is always a much better viable item if you purely want damage and the extra stats were small, but decent.

It was like a Doran's blade that stacked. It gave all these little extra stats but always sold off for better items lategame.

Finally, his ult nerf, WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU NERF THE DURATION?

Riot said rengar always escaped or initiated too easily with his ultimate, so their solution was to nerf the cooldown.
- moderately balanced -

but why nerf the duration? This actually now greatly affected rengar's ganks, especially if the enemy team has pink wards down in the river, 5 seconds is simply not long enough for you to come from the river and to pounce on someone even if they don't have wards in the river.


My personal solution to all of this.

Regular savagery does 1.1 scaling damage, and his a bit farther AA range than regular attacks, while empowered savagery does 120% extra damage instead of the old 150%
Take away the attack speed buff and put it on the W, so the synchronization with the extra MR and Armor will make this seem like a much better steroid. I also find the odd numbers on the extra MR and Armor buff on W to be...irregular, my idea is to put a flat 10+ mr and armor every level.
so it would be 10/20/30/40/50 boost per level, making it more strong lategame and not an extreme lifesaver early game.

Nerf on base health regen and scaling health regen increased to 6 and .6 from 4 and .4

Stealth cooldown ( to me) isn't that huge of a problem. Do they seem long? Yes, but again it isn't a huge problem. It just forces you to calculate what actions you'll take in the lane more efficiently.

The duration should be raised back to 7, because Rengar should be able to escape when using his ultimate and not killed by intuition when running away.
What do I mean by intuition?

Simple guessing logic on where Rengar will go when escape from enemy team with stealth on.

Running away from one person with ultimate isn't hard, but the keyword was team. If the enemy team is communicating and actually watching where you'll likely be headed, then many times you can get caught off-guard when you're recalling after escaping away.



I also think they need to buff his passive and give him maybe 10% bonus speed when going through brushes to help him chase in the jungle more, as rengar can be easily kited unless in range for the leap.


Every example listed her was from my OWN personal experience, and realize that everyone may have different play-styles with rengar whether playing him top, jungle, or even as adc, with his bursting potential.


Sorry if some of this sh*t doesn't make sense, i wrote this at 2 in the morning.


Edit; Hi, I'm not a upvote *****, but I'd atleast like a good reason or reply or a decent conversation on where you disagree with me, not just ''OMFG RENGAR IS FACEROLL NOOB CHAMPION'.
tl:dr


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Onimus Terlain

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

Rengar was designed to be an early game champion. His ability to get a level 1 kill in lane is his peak power. In the jungle, you get 4 in ferocity, then just Q-Q for basically a 1 hit kill as a level 2 gank.

That is his best phase of the game and he, rightfully, scales down as the game progresses.
The problem pre nerf was he was not scaling down properly. They fixed that and now he os operating just as they intended.

Now, obviously, he has the same opportunity as everyone else to get farmed into that "unkillable" status mid game, and his kit is definitely geared towards that goal.

But once 20-30 minutes have passed, he is a below average champion.

That's how champion design should work.

If you want him to be viable late game, he needs to give up some of his early game power.

It's the same way for people who want Garen, LeBlanc, Shaco, Pantheon or Renekton buffed. If you want to be viable late game, you can't be dominant early game. And vice versa (champs like Kog'maw, Vayne, Vlad, Amumu).

This is the epitome of balance, in my opinion.


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Yuan Shikai

Senior Member

11-08-2012

I think they should either put the old cooldown back n R or put the duration back to 7 seconds, one of those 2 and I would consider him good again.


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Epictues

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Ren had a high win rate before and was very popular. After the nerf the good players who just used him because he was OP probably moved on to another OP champ.

Meaning there were more bad Rengar players remaining than good ones, who still were playing Rengar because they didnt know he wsa nerfed, or thought he was OP. These bad Rengar players will move on after a bit, leaving only the dedicated/good Rengar players, and Rengars win % will go up.


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GuyWonder

Member

11-08-2012

If any nerfs I would see reverted, it would be health regen and ult cooldown. Everyone was already complaining about his burst, not exactly his sustain. My stance has always been "nerf in increments" and thus a 25% nerf to health regen and possibly 10 second cooldown to be added would have been more justified at first.

Personally I love Rengar, but I don't think he's brokenly unviable like everyone is crying out. I'm on Dyzmatik's boat with the direction Riot should have taken. He makes valid points and gives reasons for his points that coincide with what I've been parroting.


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