Champion AMAs returning

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Paytonus

Member

11-06-2012

Hey Kitae, not sure if you're still looking at this thread, but any ETA on Singed lore rewrite? You said he was next up for the redo and he's my favorite champ, thanks in advance.


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Gixia

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Alright, so, I finally got the answer I've been waiting for, and indeed it's the one I suspected it would be, albeit not the one I wanted.

So a follow-up question. Do you feel that putting distance between the story and the gameplay makes the game better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
So the short answer is, we are very interested in telling stories that do not reflect the gameplay of League of Legends. You ask why is the conflict between Rengar and Kha'zix relevant when they can't die in the fields of justice? The answer is, because they can die outside of the fields of justice, and if we tell more stories about their conflict they will undoubtedly occur outside of Summoner's Rift.
That doesn't actually make the conflict relevant however. It only confirms that their struggle is inconsequential. There isn't enough information contained within either bio for me to identify with either one of them, not enough to make me want to root for one or the other or invest in their conflict. Furthermore, since their story will never have any relation to my experiences with them, to the game I play with them, then even playing Kha'Zix non-stop since he came out does nothing to further my own personal connection to his fight. I do not feel invested, and as a result, I find myself unable to care about either one of them.

But that's not to say that I have no interest in conflicts that are portrayed outside of the setting of the League however. As an example, I do feel a personal connection to the struggles between Noxus and its champions, and those of Demacia, or the conflict between Noxus and Ionia. I do feel invested in those champions, and what they do outside of the League of Legends. But the reason WHY I feel invested in them, and care about the things they do, is that I grew attached to them through the game first, and their storylines that tied them to the game specifically. Things like Swain vs. Jarvan, that's a conflict I can get behind and root for one side, because it's a conflict that ties into the actual gameplay. Theirs is a fight where each individual battle on Summoner's Rift counts. Their story is one that actually matters and has an impact on the game. Each victory for one gives more clout to their respective factions. Maybe their conflict will never actually be resolved on Summoner's Rift for the same reason that Rengar's and Kha's won't be resolved, since neither can die there, but at least their fights MATTER. If Swain wins on the Fields of Justice, then Noxus wins a political bout and gains more power. Likewise, a victory for Jarvan is a victory for all of Demacia. Their conflict will likely not end in a gameplay match, but it complements the game in a way that Rengar vs. Kha'Zix/Diana vs. Leona/Warwick vs. Soraka/etc. never could. And because I grow invested in them through the game, my interest carries over out of game. So a story that features either Swain, or Jarvan, or both that takes places elsewhere, with no connection whatsoever to the League of Legends, still holds my attention. It still has meaning and relevance, because you've successfully made me care about them first.

I want you to make me care about all of the champions, I want to be interested in what they do, but these bios are not succeeding in drawing me into their story.

Quote:
For example - what is the real history between Garen and Katarina? That's a story I'd love to tell, and it has nothing to do with Summoners or the Fields of Justice.
I swear to god, if you make them an official couple, *insert vague, non-specific threat here*. Seriously though, nothing to do with the Fields of Justice? Their many, frequent encounters there have had no impact at all? Way to make me less interested in it, though I supposed that makes it easier to scrub it out of my head-canon if they ever get actually get together.


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kitae

Lead Designer

11-07-2012
9 of 13 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodGod22 View Post
Kit, what about older champions that didn't get any AMA or new lore or even a judgement. I really want to know more about Nautilus and what the dark waters are, why he was changed instead of killed or something.
Will we ever get some more info on him?
Yes but can't say specifically when


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kitae

Lead Designer

11-07-2012
10 of 13 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
Alright, so, I finally got the answer I've been waiting for, and indeed it's the one I suspected it would be, albeit not the one I wanted.

So a follow-up question. Do you feel that putting distance between the story and the gameplay makes the game better?
No, but it makes the stories better becuase it gives us more options for storytelling.

Your own posts point out that a blood feud between Rengar and Kaz'zix doesn't make sense if they are fighting in the fields of justice where neither can "truly" die. This is one example of a type of story we'd be unable to tell if we focused narrative on the Fields of Justice.


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kitae

Lead Designer

11-07-2012
11 of 13 Riot Posts

It's been good talking with you guys, going to back off on this thread for now but... I shall return to the forums!

I appreciate that the conversation has been more civil this time around. Criticism is welcome, but raging and toxicity doesn't help the conversation ever it kills conversation. This is your forum, and I encourage you to use the existing moderation tools (upvotes and downvotes) to keep things civil in your discussions with each other and with Reds.


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

11-07-2012

I didn't understand if you already started working in the direction of finding new ways to tell the lore or it will be revealed soon, since It's not a drastic change from what you did before, you just tell the story of the champ itself more deeply, I like what you did with the Shadow Isles but I would like to see something like the continuation of vayne's and leblanc's conflict which you didn't finish and left it up in the air without any logic ending, I would like the lore being a bigger part of the gameplay not just something that define a champ


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Shadownova420

Junior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EJulian View Post
I would like the lore being a bigger part of the gameplay not just something that define a champ
There are a couple instances although relatively rare:

Volibear and Zilean taunt each other in game.

Kha'zix can get a 4th evolution and rengar can also get a buff when they are in a match with one another, under the right circumstances.

There are a few more as well although I can't remember a link for them


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Gixia

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Though you say you're done with this thread Kitae, I hope that only means that you're done responding to it, not that you're done reading it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
No, but it makes the stories better becuase it gives us more options for storytelling.

Your own posts point out that a blood feud between Rengar and Kaz'zix doesn't make sense if they are fighting in the fields of justice where neither can "truly" die. This is one example of a type of story we'd be unable to tell if we focused narrative on the Fields of Justice.
So then why is this the story you've chosen to tell with these characters? The story could be told just as easily with characters who do not exist in-game, characters created specifically to suit the story. It would have just as large an impact on the world. Except you'd have nowhere to tell it of course.

A champion's bio is the only piece of lore that actually can be found inside the game client. Even the actual lore button in the client just opens up links to the website, and things like these AMAs aren't able to be located from within the game client at all. More than any other piece of lore, a champion's bio should actually relate to the game in some way, because that's where so many will actually see it. It should be a place for facts and details, and most of all, it should be made clear why a champion is actually a character in-game, why they're there, and why we should play as them.

Every single champion AMA, I've seen at least one person ask the exact same question every time. They have asked 'what is this character's reason for joining the league'. And if people are asking that every time, then it's something that should be made clear in their bio. And the answer given is the same about 75% of the time: 'We don't want to do one-liners about them joining the league anymore', which is a non-answer. It's a relevant question that doesn't need a one-liner to answer it. It's an answer that could be given during AMAs (but frequently isn't), or it's something that could be explained in a bio with more than one line. You guys used to do League Judgments, which were whole short stories practically dedicated to explaining why a champion has joined. The 'story' you include in the bio could feature details like that, or you just fill in enough details about the champion that the answer is obvious and doesn't need explanation. But if the answer isn't clear, and somebody needs to ask about it, then we're not being given enough detail.

We're not being given pertinent information, in the name of giving us a 'better story'. But we could be getting an even better story still by actually releasing alternative sources of lore and giving us these bio stories in more depth through these alternative sources, freeing up the bios to deal in facts. And you say they're coming, but I'd argue they're not coming fast enough. Getting more lore out sooner should be a higher priority than retooling old bios. That way you'd actually have some way to tell these stories in a manner that's more satisfying for everyone involved. And then, if you did that, and actually had some lore going outside of the game, it would feel more justified when you tell stories that have no relation to gameplay. Though even then I would still maintain my claim that every single champion should have a valid and clear reason for being a member of the League. In other words, a champion's story should make sense.

I'm sorry if I come across as 'toxic', or 'raging', as that's certainly not my intent. This is a topic I feel very strongly about and I simply don't know any other way to convey my feelings on the issue.


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Vongeo

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
We used to give one liners explaining why champions joined the league. These one liners didn't really give any new information on the champion, and they weren't stories, they were one liners.

No more one liners.

Champion bios are stories, so we're going to focus on telling a great story.

I understand that players appreciate facts, and old-format bios did contain more facts, we are exploring other ways of getting facts to players outside of the bio.
Excuse my late and probably unanswered response( not to knock repsonsiveness, but rather the nature of the interaction), but I have been unable to log into the forum recently.
The one liners gave loads of information about the champion. They gave there entire motivation( Something you said you wanted in champion bios for in another thread) for being part of the game rather than just a random part of Runeterra. Its what separates characters like Stanwick Piddily from Viktor, giving them motivation for joining and being an in game character rather than part of a mythology. Knowing a characters motives in fighting in summoners rift give them reason to be played.

I don't understand why I'd have a particular reason to choose and root for a champ if they are just in the league by circumstance. The one liners are great, and you discredit them for being just one line. They give a feeling of completion as well as tell you where you expect the champion to go, why they go there and lets you predict what interactions they may have in the future. Singular lines can do many things even as separate entities. A lot of the times they do more for a work then the entire rest of it. I'd give examples, but don't have the time to find examples in both the lore and other things you are familiar with at riot ( I think Zileon might know "And so it goes"), but I am really without time and will make a later post when I have more to explain why getting rid of these, or putting them in AMAs (which are really out of the way to get to) among other bawws and whininess.


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Geokhan

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Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
We used to give one liners explaining why champions joined the league. These one liners didn't really give any new information on the champion, and they weren't stories, they were one liners.

No more one liners.

Champion bios are stories, so we're going to focus on telling a great story.

I understand that players appreciate facts, and old-format bios did contain more facts, we are exploring other ways of getting facts to players outside of the bio.

GIMME!!!!

Seriously, you keep teasing us with these side thoughts on how your gonna deliver Lore in the Post-JoJ era. Can't you at least say more than, "we got something in the works"?