[Featured Discussion] Flat health heal on hit item. why not?

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DG Nighthawk

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If by uncounterable you mean 'Make less effective' - then yes. Frozen Heart is effectively uncounterable. Frozen Heart may be overpowered - sure. But that's a different discussion from 'Frozen Heart is fundamentally uncounterable.'

Vayne or Kog'maw don't suddenly just dissappear because your team has 2 or 3 Frozen Hearts. It just takes them an extra three seconds to destroy your entire team, as ranged carries are about sustained damage.

Contrast this with ability power mages - whose primary function is to typically provide large amounts of area of effect damage in as short a time frame as possible. High amounts of slot-efficient magic resistance typically tends to be a much harder counter to mages due to the bursty nature of their damage.

Actually I disagree, having 3 Frozen Hearts legitimately means Kog'maw, Sivir, etc become worthless :P

The debuff is so bad that it can reduce your attack speed to basically zero and take you out of the fight.


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Best Youmu NA

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by xRaínbowDash View Post
Actually I disagree, having 3 Frozen Hearts legitimately means Kog'maw, Sivir, etc become worthless :P

The debuff is so bad that it can reduce your attack speed to basically zero and take you out of the fight.
Except auras don't work that way dumb dumb. Only one aura can be taken into effect at any time. That means only one of your 5 frozen hearts is giving the -20% attack speed debuff to anyone in the area. Friendly auras work slightly different but that's another story.


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Xephen

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilearbiter View Post
Except auras don't work that way dumb dumb. Only one aura can be taken into effect at any time. That means only one of your 5 frozen hearts is giving the -20% attack speed debuff to anyone in the area. Friendly auras work slightly different but that's another story.
Here is the lesser known fact about aura, it is not one aura, but two that take effect. Up to two aura's of the same type can take effect. This works with friendly aura's as well. Though if it is percent based the effect is usually multiplicative, not additive.
Frozen heart really Hurts melee more than it does ranged though mainly when chasing due to the fact that a melee has to stand still for the moment to auto attack, and if he wants to chase then he has to attack then move, but Frozen heart will keep that from working out so well. The item is not 'OP' is it strong? yes. should it be strong? yes.
It is one of the few things left in the game that can counter AS well.

I do believe though that the way melee attack needs to be addressed a bit because if they are chasing someone of the same speed then they will not really be able to keep up if they try to auto attack.


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Retsu Unohana

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

Nerf irelia


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CobaltCobalt

Senior Member

11-07-2012

What happens when Irelia gets this item?

Better....*sigh*


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RyuPhalian

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Quite honestly, I have no idea. There's a lot of moving parts here on changes.

Force of Nature served three purposes, one of which we couldn't make good.

1. High end MR item on one item.

We're not sure that a single rushed item should counter mages so heavily. So buying FoN for raw magic resistance was always going to be somewhat of a trap because we could never make it *good* to have this much MR on a single item without it simply being cost-inefficient so it could be slot-efficient.

There are ways to make an item cost-inefficient for selfish MR while still making it cost-efficient as a whole for MR though...

2. Regeneration/Siege

This we liked, but the fact that it was tied to a movement speed item and a magic resist item was a little weird. It didn't quite seem to click, so tanks that had to itemize regeneration kind of picked up a bunch of stats randomly.

Also, the tri-fecta of Warmogs / Spirit Visage / FoN was actually incredibly hard to get a good sense of balance. Mostly because it turns "on" super-late but mostly because they build on each other a little too much. While we like the build of 'I am unstoppable brick wall of regeneration' - we think that right now it's both really hard to get *and* overpowered when finished and we'd really like to see it be a more viable build that's more in line when it does happen so people feel like they aren't taking long-gambits but more of a choice on how to itemize.

3. Movement Speed

The whole paradigm of X class gets a MS item Y is actually starting to show where the faults are. In order to specialize for movement speed, you have to build into a very specific item - which naturally creates this weird power gap where a class that is perfectly catered by item Y gets MS while every other class pays a gold tax of unwanted stats to get the same mobility. This naturally leads to people wanting more MS/X items for a specific class - which seems to suggest that maybe what people actually want is more ubiquitous movement options that don't consume slots rather than a continuous stream of one-off items with MS% randomly on it.

For example, Lich Bane is the AP item with movement speed on it. That kind of screws every AP caster who doesn't want Lich Bane or can't use it well. This leads to this weird case where randomly, some class of characters get faster just because they can use Lich Bane well. While it's nice to have a few items like this - it's probably a sign as a whole that people want to be able to somehow spend more gold to get mobility rather than they want catered items that have MS on the item.
Seriously? THIS is your defense to why you want to remove FoN? This is no defense, this is bad comedy. You NEVER explain why you can't tweak the numbers, change the heal from FoN into bonus Health Regen, or make Spirit Visage ONLY work on champion abilities. Oh, and that so called "OP Regen" build is only built by ONE champion, Mundo. If you hate super regen then nerf him and NOT FoN. Removing FoN would hurt so many tanky champions. Also, if the enemy AP is snowballing, unless you somehow already have a godly amount of health, why would you build FoN over Banshee's Veil!? That shield can help shut down their combo. And before you bring you YOUR opinion again, show me ANY tournament of this year where a champion rushed this "OP Regen" build on any champ EXCEPT Mundo. If you can then I will back down but until then I will do all I can to stop this misuse of power. And by the way, I am looking for cold hard facts, so if you wouldn't mind, please add sources and references to back up your claims.


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Jesus Jon

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WateryMind View Post
And stuff like this is why Xypherous is worshipped as a god in some dark corners of the forums.
Dark corners? Hell, I'll worship him in the well-lit corners of GD for years to come for these changes. As much as I loved Force of Nature on my tanks, it was a very niche item and had some very strange stats that felt arbitrary and unneeded on some champions that you would build the item on.

Reading what he had to say quickly changed me from being "pissed because my FoN was removed" to "enthusiastic that it opens up new doors for anti-caster itemization."

It says a lot about Xyph here and his reasoning when it took him no time to convince me that this was a positive change.


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Purgation

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
We're not sure that a single rushed item should counter mages so heavily. So buying FoN for raw magic resistance was always going to be somewhat of a trap because we could never make it *good* to have this much MR on a single item without it simply being cost-inefficient so it could be slot-efficient.

There are ways to make an item cost-inefficient for selfish MR while still making it cost-efficient as a whole for MR though...

Translation - auras

I don't get though why riot seems to hate on tanky items so much. Shouldn't counter-play by itemization be a good thing?

addendum: The reasoning about move speed makes a ton of sense, shouldn't depend on how well your champ can use the limited pool of ms items.


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Purgation

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Contrast this with ability power mages - whose primary function is to typically provide large amounts of area of effect damage in as short a time frame as possible. High amounts of slot-efficient magic resistance typically tends to be a much harder counter to mages due to the bursty nature of their damage.
You could always make building magic penetration easier and more impactful, so that mages can reasonably get around this if needed.

I hope you plan on nurfing the hell out of champs like Jax who will have tons of now-too-expensive-to-counter magic damage -- but not the vulnerabilities of mages.


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Pitufito Dell

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

I think that it can be a good idea, and is somewhat need. But Irelia, for example, could easely abuse of this. I think that a item like "+30% AS +30 AP Unique Passive: +10 Spell Penetration. Unique Passive: On hit, you recover 15 Health plus 0.25% of you'r total health. Unique Active: You'r next 3 basic attacks recover 5% of you'r total health. (60 CD).

Built from wtherver... like Lucky Pick + Dagger and a expensive recipe.