[Featured Discussion] Flat health heal on hit item. why not?

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RockJockey

Senior Member

11-06-2012

@ Xypherous

Since we are talking about Lifesteal and its variants. I had suggested on another forum thread a variant of Lifesteal instead of healing a % of the damage you deal, instead you heal a % of your Maximum Health each time you AutoAttack.

Quote:
Welcome Soviet Summoners, just been brainstorming ideas for new items to add to the variety of LoL.

I made this item's stats complementary to an aggressive AD Offtank.
Hungering Hackrazor:
Passive: Upon critically striking, gain a Stack that heals 5% of your max Health over 2 seconds. No limit on Stacks.
Giant's Belt 1110
Cloak of Agility 830
Pickaxe 975
combine 395
Total: 3300
Stats: 500 Health + 20 Critical Chance + 35 AD

Reason: AD + HP items is a seriously lacking area. While there are a number of HP items with nifty benefits, I don't always need or want to get a Warmog's Armor or a Frozen Mallet or a Sunfire Cape. This would be a niche item for AD offtank Champions such as Shyvana. It appeals to Tanks and Bruisers because it offers a decent amount of Health, Damage and Critical Chance. The Passive's Health Regeneration via AA would be nifty, while not as powerful as lifesteal. Would RADCs want this? No, why get this when you could get 1 IE, 2 BT's and 2PD's.

This item would be a good choice if you got a Trinity Force and a Atma's Implaler, but needed health. Of the AD health choices, there is Warmogs, Sunfire Cape, Randuin's Omen, and Frozen Mallet. If you have Trinity Force, you don't need Frozen Mallet. Sunfire and Randuin's are both good, but Atma's provides enough Armor. Warmogs is just health and Health Regen, and sometimes it feels like a wasted stat to just get health. And that is where Hungering HackRazor fits in, It proveds a bit AD, Crit, and a good chunk of Health and a small amount of Sustain.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

11-06-2012
2 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
Since we are talking about Lifesteal and its variants. I had suggested on another forum thread a variant of Lifesteal instead of healing a % of the damage you deal, instead you heal a % of your Maximum Health each time you AutoAttack.
This stat 'Heal a % of your maximum health on strike' is probablly one of the most fun statistics in PvE games - because you get all this intricate crunchy stuff trying to proc it and such and optimizing the heal versus the proc rate, etc.

In a PvP game, this number optimization is actually kind of detrimental to overall flow - because you don't have the luxury of crunchy build optimization. You have to win now against the opponents you have now, with the build you have now. Is Attack Damage more important? Is Resists? Is Health? Build that.

Basically, it's one of those statistics that have a ton of conditionals riding on it that tend to make it unstable and actually kind of annoying when you don't have perfect item build control.


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RockJockey

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Thanks for Replying and the critique =)

What do you mean by "crunchy'? Number Crunching?


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exe3

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

What about healing based on your current missing health? Though that might belong more on a champions kit rather than an item.


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cheezzyy

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
This stat 'Heal a % of your maximum health on strike' is probablly one of the most fun statistics in PvE games - because you get all this intricate crunchy stuff trying to proc it and such and optimizing the heal versus the proc rate, etc.

In a PvP game, this number optimization is actually kind of detrimental to overall flow - because you don't have the luxury of crunchy build optimization. You have to win now against the opponents you have now, with the build you have now. Is Attack Damage more important? Is Resists? Is Health? Build that.

Basically, it's one of those statistics that have a ton of conditionals riding on it that tend to make it unstable and actually kind of annoying when you don't have perfect item build control.
This item would still be really good for the max hp tanks like Shen volibear Mundo and sejuani. They already get their damage from hp so why not heal of it too?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

11-06-2012
3 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
This item would still be really good for the max hp tanks like Shen volibear Mundo and sejuani. They already get their damage from hp so why not heal of it too?
There's a difference between scaling off health and scaling on procs for survivability versus damage.

On the one hand, there are abilities that scale off health. If I get damage for more health, that makes health more appealing for example. But a proc that scales off attack speed and health, starts getting problematic because the goal is to become survivable. But now you have to figure out the right mix of attack speed, health and resistances to make that possible.

Contrast the damage to health scaling that Sejuani has - where health is simply a more cost-efficient stat and attractive stat because if you want damage and survivability, you'll pick up more health.

There's just too many conditionals for 'health based on max health based on attack speed' for it to feel quite right when you don't have perfect item control. Consider trying to figure out whether resistances or a giant's belt or a recurve bow will make you tankier and it gets really confusing.

Note that you could make the same argument for Life Steal as a whole - but I feel like Max Health tends to introduce cases where the resistances vs. health calculations get really odd - while for Carries and Lifesteal, the ideal route is just 'Go get more damage.'


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Moist Typewriter

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Member

11-06-2012

@Xypherous

making the heal effect a HoT would alleviate a large chunk of this. If it does its max health healing over the course of 2 seconds, with additional hits simply replacing with a new duration instead of stacking, you mostly remove attack speed from the equation.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

11-06-2012
4 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
making the heal effect a HoT would alleviate a large chunk of this. If it does its max health healing over the course of 2 seconds, with additional hits simply replacing with a new duration instead of stacking, you mostly remove attack speed from the equation.
This solution works but tends makes the effect less cool in a lot of ways. It flattens the interactions it can have which also tends to flatten why the stat was compelling in the first place.

There's some forms of balance that just completely make what was compelling bland and uninteresting. They work at solving the problem but the sacrifice is a bit much in some cases.


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Moist Typewriter

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Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
This solution works but tends makes the effect less cool in a lot of ways. It flattens the interactions it can have which also tends to flatten why the stat was compelling in the first place.

There's some forms of balance that just completely make what was compelling bland and uninteresting. They work at solving the problem but the sacrifice is a bit much in some cases.
This makes sense. Look no further than Shen who has this HoT mechanic (does he still?), and who feels like he has much less sustain than he actually does.

Still, though, it is a decent solution for giving sustain to tanks, for example. Ideally, it would be an endgame item that only appeals to pure tanks and not just tanky bruisers.

However, we have Force of Nature for pretty much just that.


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ProfDrDeath

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Flat on-hit heals would also be quite interesting for On-hit builds, which currently are a bit lacking in the sustain aspect. However, this should be way lower than Lifesteal, for On-hit builds are usually more durable than AD/Crit builds.


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