Lord Van Damms pillager moved to summoned rift

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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-26-2012

I really like Lunaria's suggestion about allowing Kitae's Bloodrazor into SR and making it build into Madred's Bloodrazor. Right now the process of building a Madred's feels incredibly awkward, painful even. The pickaxe is both costly and wasteful to champs I would build a Madreds on, as Madred's is only really desirable for the passive, which just happens to synergize well with the AS it also provides in the build tree, while the 25 AD is a waste. As it currently stands, Madred's Bloodrazor feels like a late game item that forces you to start it early and give up your mid game strength in order to complete it before the game ends, but keeps you from completing it quickly enough to build anything else, making you little threat to anyone even after you finish it. Having Kitae's Bloodrazor as an intermediary between the base Bloodrazor and Madred's Bloodrazor would indeed solve this issue I think.
As far as Pillager is concerned, I think it would be a wonderful addition to SR.


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DracoLeeRose

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Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirehn View Post
Hello new Jayce item!

I mean really.... Four spells that proc spell vamp,four that proc armor pen... That nice health for sustain in top lane. I can't imagine many current top lane meta champs that can't use this item save the APs like Vlad and Yorick.

Yorick is a AD top lane man, his Q and E are his magic damage but his W the one used to heal up is all damage of the physical kind. So I could see him using the item to since many Yoricks build into ad hp heavy bruisers.


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DracoLeeRose

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11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Run4TheHills321 View Post
an AD yoric would be a major pain with this item, dont 1 or 2 of his ghouls scale off AD?

Q and E scale AP and do Magic damage. His W is AD and does Physical damage.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

11-06-2012
1 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
Pillager needs to be on SR. It works so well with a lot of bruisers.
I'm just going to bite the bullet and say this is pretty much the reason why Pillager shouldn't touch SR ever; unless you want every Bruiser build to start with 'First, get your pillager and then get your second Heart of Gold.' Also, because every Bruiser ever has this - you can pretty much say goodbye to any pure AD caster as there's very little reason to take them over a Bruiser with Pillager. A Bruiser with Pillager will simply far outclass anything an AD Caster will ever do with it - mostly because SV/CDR don't actually work on pure assassins to begin with.

And the portion of the game it would help them the most, the lane sustain part, is also inaccessible because Pillager is a high-tier item. Paying 3k to be able to sustain in lane seems pretty poor if SV/CDR don't actually help you in fights as an assassin. Pillager essentially turns every AD Caster into a Bruiser and every Bruiser into a Beast beyond imaginable, which is fine - but you have to remember that at the end of the day, the game has to be balanced... so.. something has to give. :x

As to why it's not a problem on Twisted Treeline - there's a couple of factors that prevent Pillager from being crazy out of line on TT as it would be on SR:

1. Heart of Gold isn't good on Twisted Treeline. You don't hold onto Heart of Gold for that long. The Gold per 5 gain is pretty minimal from the item itself.

2. Flat Armor Penetration is great *if* you can reliably count on a target to reduce down to minimal armor. However, on Twisted Treeline, survivability is almost always a given - thus your target selection is poor. While there *might* be a hyper-carry comp in some games, you're probably going to run into a slugfest more often or not.

3. Items, in general, need to be far stronger on TT than SR in a lot of cases to compensate for the fact that certain classes don't do anything to each other in a 3v3 setting versus a 5v5 setting. This is why a lot of the 'long grindy' items tend to need to be stronger - there's just less damage overall. This is also why SV/CDR makes a lot more sense on TT - fights drag out longer because there's just less overall damage floating around. (Recall SV / Dominion in the time where all fights were 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. SV was king and almost unbeatable on champions that could utilize it. There simply wasn't enough damage floating around to counteract the effect of single target SV - Go go Akali!)

4. I'm not really sure the item is actually okay on TT. XD


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm just going to bite the bullet and say this is pretty much the reason why Pillager shouldn't touch SR ever; unless you want every Bruiser build to start with 'First, get your pillager and then get your second Heart of Gold.' Also, because every Bruiser ever has this - you can pretty much say goodbye to any pure AD caster as there's very little reason to take them over a Bruiser with Pillager. A Bruiser with Pillager will simply far outclass anything an AD Caster will ever do with it.
Then why does this item exist on TT? Bruisers are the one class that didn't need help there.

Also, AD Casters aren't by necessity assassins, it's just how many of them worked thus far.


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YSRS

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Would an item with only +ad and +spellvamp be an option to provide AD based assassins or casters

with more lane sustain capabilities while avoiding giving bruisers more strength?

Or would that be more problematic then it seems?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

11-06-2012
2 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
Also, AD Casters aren't by necessity assassins, it's just how many of them worked thus far.
You're right in that it's *not* by necessity. However, let's take a look at how AD Casters are structured.

1. You get the majority of your damage from spells.
2. You don't get many opportunities to autoattack because your kit doesn't allow you to stick.
3. Your autoattack is, however, amazing, because of all this AD you're building.

That kind of paradigm naturally pushes AD Casters into being assassins.

If #1 wasn't true, you're an autoattack based fighter, as you get very little damage from spells. You're not really a Caster at this point.

If #2 isn't true, you're probably best as an auto-attack based fighter. As you can stick and can build damage - so you can probably rely on base damages and also hammer autoattacks off for maximum DPS, would means you should build tank rather than focusing on AD. You'd have to have zero base damage and amazing AD scaling for a sustained AD Caster Bruiser to work. While this isn't unheard of (Riven with BT/GA, for example, is in this paradigm) - it creates a host of other problems, such as - you are incredibly snowbally as a champion.

If #3 isn't true, you're not an Attack Damage character.

Because all 3 are typically true on an AD Caster character, they get rapidly hemmed into high damage burst combos that scale really well off AD with zero sticking power - which Assassin naturally fits the best in.

Quote:
Then why does this item exist on TT? Bruisers are the one class that didn't need help there.
As to why specifically the item exists on TT, you'll have to ask Nome directly on that. I assume he was just trying to give Bruisers a damage!/survivability route rather than straight survivability/survivability route. Because honestly, the major difficulty in 3v3 maps is that since we balance defenses around a 5v5 game - 3v3 maps have this weird tendency to degrade into 3 brick walls hitting each other ineffectively.

Quote:
Would an item with only +ad and +spellvamp be an option to provide AD based assassins or casters
The major problem is that Spell Vamp is only good for AD casters *in lane*, for a lot of cases. The average time you are alive in a team fight, assuming you haven't completely run away with the game is so short as to make the amount of Spell Vamp you have inconsequential to your survivability. Mostly because you can't build the resistances that would actually make it worth it.

Contrast, Shyvana, who has 80 Armor / Magic Resistance during her Ultimate and is getting much more payoff from the Spell Vamp in general because she's geared as a sustained damage bruiser.

AD Casters have enough of a problem scaling into late game as is, without introducing an item that has a trap stat for the late game. :/


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Urgot will never get his Spell Vamp AD Caster item...because everyone thinks Assassins are the only AD Casters.

ENDLESS MISERY


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

11-06-2012
3 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
Urgot will never get his Spell Vamp AD Caster item...because everyone thinks Assassins are the only AD Casters.

ENDLESS MISERY
Well, there's a choice of two miseries for Urgot - you get to pick one!

1. Urgot never gets "his" SV/AD Item.
2. Bruisers with the SV/AD item destroy Urgot with "his" item.

Although - actually, maybe one day we'll go back and do champion specific items to add new ways to play existing champions - but that project is kind of a pipe dream that's at least like 1+ years old at this point.


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YSRS

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Dam. Now I feel like I messed up trying to go a spell vamp route with talon.

Speaking of AD Assassin Itemization, Has there been any useful ( for design purposes) data on how assassins are building in Twisted Treeline? Has there any preference to say, Blade of the Ruined King over Sanguine blade?


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