An Armor / Attack Speed Item

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Ginga

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Is this an official opinion or just your own opinion?


Because with something like Ionic and Manamune for example, they're so niche that you almost never see them, and as you said, they're suboptimal in nearly all cases. What was the point of having them in the first place? I'm pretty certain that even back when it was created, mana is almost never an issue for AD's past the laning phase. And Ionic Spark seems outclassed by so many other options.

Ionic Spark is irresistibly fun to build, but functionally there isn't much reason to build it unless you're Shen, hence you'll never see it in 99.9% of serious matches. (maybe if it's damage scaled you'd see it used)


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MrHaveANiceDay

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
Is this an official opinion or just your own opinion?


Because with something like Ionic and Manamune for example, they're so niche that you almost never see them, and as you said, they're suboptimal in nearly all cases. What was the point of having them in the first place? I'm pretty certain that even back when it was created, mana is almost never an issue for AD's past the laning phase. And Ionic Spark seems outclassed by so many other options.

Ionic Spark is irresistibly fun to build, but functionally there isn't much reason to build it unless you're Shen, hence you'll never see it in 99.9% of serious matches. (maybe if it's damage scaled you'd see it used)
I'd personally love it if adding another Ruby Crystal or Giant's Belt to an Ionic Spark created something like an 'Ionic Bolt' - same attack speed, +250 more health, 160 damage chain proc.

Yeah, it's tough at that point not to make the DotA Maelstrom/Mjolnir comparison, but they're a model that should be considered for copying because it's a model that solidly works; from a character standpoint, there's something self-rewarding about the idea of building Mael/Mjol on a character. When I build it on Naix or some similar hero, I get the 'fun' feeling of saying "I am building for better pushing potential." Here is the item I want, I know what it does and what it's used for, and I feel instantly positive about buying it.

It's something I was delighted to see make an appearance in LoL, that same model of 'I want to push and here is a pushing item,' and I don't think there's anything wrong with pushing the trend. (Pun not originally intended)


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Why not have an AS+Armor item that grants aura benefits, much like the old Stark's Fervor (effectively LoL's version of DotA's Assault Cuirass); it caters to supports and a couple of auto-attack champions while not being so good on bruisers everyone you described wants it.


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67chrome

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
AS/AR is kind of a niche item primarily for bruisers who can autoattack. There isn't a whole lot of classes that would actually like such a stat.

So essentially, you'd be making an item for Lee Sin/Udyr/Shyv/Irelia - which immediately jumps at the question of 'Do they actually need this item?'
And Xin Zhao, and Jax, and I'll agree their annoying enough to deal with.

It would be really handy on Fiora, Yi, and Tryndamere in Twisted Treelines and Dominion though, currently there isn't a lot of armor/AD options available there. In Dominion the only one is Atma's Impaler, which is a bit awkward. Especially considering with those champs you can go Mercury Treads+Wits End+Maw of Malmortis to hard-counter AP champions. Speaking of which, it would be nice if there was an Armor+Tenacity item for all those phage procs and AD-heavy crowd control effects.

If there was an AS+Armor item I'd really like to see it favor Assassins and Melee Carries though, all things considered they feel like they need every attribute to perform well, and it would be nice if they could get some hybridized items to do so.

As-is a lot of the Tanky DPS champions you mentioned seem to be totally fine with items like Randuin's Omen, Frozen Heart, Atma's Impaler, Guardian Angel, and Sunfire Cape to get their armor levels up there.


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MrHaveANiceDay

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
AS/AR is kind of a niche item primarily for bruisers who can autoattack. There isn't a whole lot of classes that would actually like such a stat.

So essentially, you'd be making an item for Lee Sin/Udyr/Shyv/Irelia - which immediately jumps at the question of 'Do they actually need this item?'

Currently, I'm at the opinion that while yes, there is a void here - it's probably an okay void to have unless we're somehow trying to make early armor viable on AD carries.

That said, in the jungle, attack speed / armor is really appealing on pretty much everyone who jungles - So if an item were to be made along these stat lines, the large bulk of the item's gold value would probably go towards being jungle-related to help autoattack bruisers transition better into the mid / late game, rather than a lane dominance item with AS/AR.
As an avid Renekton player, I wouldn't mind the existence of an item offering AS/AR. Yes, most games will have me prioritizing other stats, other items, other builds.

However, the position I find myself in as Renekton--consistently--is that I always have what is essentially the same build. In any situation, win or lose, good or bad. My performance in lane (farming, kills, etc), as well as my lane opponent has no real bearing on what my lategame item choices will be, because there are only a handful of items that are reasonable for me to use.

Are there games where I go against this sad truth? Of course. My most recent Renekton victory shows this. I went 'Jungle-Nekton' and built a Hextech Gunblade, for god's sake. Popping Renek's ultimate and using a Furious Cull the Meek in the middle of the enemy team--and healing for hundreds of damage and seeing the 'look' on their 'faces'--is truly priceless, but it was an unhappy truth to realize that the entire game (jungling as Renekton, building Hextech) was an outsider, a luxury that is simply not viable in ninety percent of games, and next time I play Renekton I'll be building him 'as normal.'


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Sebamk

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
An item being niche is more often a bad thing that a good thing - unless the niche is readily identifiable at first glance - then the niche is okay. It's about how readily the niche communicates itself.

For example, Spirit Visage is a niche item built to cater characters with strong self-healing effects. That's probably fine as any character can look at that and go 'Well, no self-heals here, I can ignore that.'

Ionic Spark, however, is not a good niche item to have, mostly because it looks like a good item. It feels like a good item. And then 95% of the time, you're doing it wrong if you buy it.
So is that the reason Shen is almost the only character that can use Ionic Spark effectively?

BTW, good to see you again


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

11-06-2012
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Because with something like Ionic and Manamune for example, they're so niche that you almost never see them, and as you said, they're suboptimal in nearly all cases. What was the point of having them in the first place? I'm pretty certain that even back when it was created, mana is almost never an issue for AD's past the laning phase. And Ionic Spark seems outclassed by so many other options.
Keep in mind what I said 'It looks like a good item. It feels like a good item.' This rings true even in development.

When we set out to make something - it's very easy for us to be convinced that something *is* a good item. Time only tells what happens after release though and whether the qualities we thought were important was actually good.

Basically, they looked like good ideas at the time and they felt like good ideas / tested okay but players are far more keen and they conduct far more tests.


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TalLavi

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Xyph since you are here and we are talking about Armor, is there a way to make the Armor/MR values more visible while in game?

Yea we can see that X champ has tons of hp bars so he has a lot of HP, but what about Armor?
When I get into a team fight and I see that the enemy AP built RoA and Rylai while the bruiser has Trinity Force and Warmogs, who should I focus? I dont know who I can burst down faster right off the bat because they both have tons of HP, but how much Armor? how much MR? I really wish there was a better way to visually convey those stats.


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Angelbelle

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Does ionic spark's proc counter resets to 0 hits if you don't auto for a while? Or do you keep the stack regardless. Ex. can i auto something 3x, then after half a minute of team fight dancing, have it proc on the 1st and 5th auto when i engage?


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Warbane

Member

11-06-2012

Why not make an item that builds from recurve bow and a chainvest, call it Templar's Ballista.
recipe - 660 gold +50%aspd + 55 armor
"Unique passive - Every time you get hit with a basic attack increase your attack speed by 10 percent, stacks up to 4 times."


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