While Sejuani is really UP. Another of hers problem is how pointless her Boar is...

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Thessalonike

Senior Member

11-04-2012

@op

its really sad because everyone knows... well anyone that really follows sejuani knows Ironstylus said her model was a mistake and a learning experience.

I have made the assumption several times that as riot waits for season 3 jungle to adjust her they will also adjust her model too or at least a new adjusted skin, possibly a lore adjustment that makes sense too.


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Ginga

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Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
The Yeit actually does assist with the iceball spell and the ultimate, if he didn't why would he move, or why would he concentrate?

Incidently, why does the Yeti eating a monster heal Nunu?

The blood boil thing I could see, but really all nunu does is ride around on Willump I believe his name is, and throw snowballs.
In this case Riot sure doesn't do a great job showing what happens. When Nunu uses Snowball, Willump just tilts his head or something.

As for Devour healing Nunu, I think he's really healing "Nunu" the champion, not the character riding Willump. I'm gonna assume Willump consists of 99% of "Nunu"'s hp. Hence healing on Willump heals the champion. Nunu the character probably has like 1 hp.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
@op

its really sad because everyone knows... well anyone that really follows sejuani knows Ironstylus said her model was a mistake and a learning experience.

I have made the assumption several times that as riot waits for season 3 jungle to adjust her they will also adjust her model too or at least a new adjusted skin, possibly a lore adjustment that makes sense too.
According to him, he believes that the problem with her model is that she's sexy for someone who hails from Freljord. Except I counter him by saying it makes perfect sense for someone like Sejuani. She's a barbarian!


I don't think he ever mentioned anything about Bristles being a pointless addition to the champion considering Sejuani's kit.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post



According to him, he believes that the problem with her model is that she's sexy for someone who hails from Freljord. Except I counter him by saying it makes perfect sense for someone like Sejuani. She's a barbarian!


I don't think he ever mentioned anything about Bristles being a pointless addition to the champion considering Sejuani's kit.

well... imo you very much over simplified it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I appreciate how this question was asked, so here's the deal with Sejuani.

A lot of what I'll say here has had its way paved by Morello in that he owns up to when we gaff up to something design-wise, I feel we did in fact gaff up art-wise with Sejuani, at least in terms of marrying concept with context. I shall explain..

I worked on Sejuani‘s production art, in that I did a turnaround of her after her concept had been fleshed out and approved. Basically, front, side, back, of both her and the boar. I actually wasn't working at Riot when I began working on her. I was a freelancer at the time and it was an assignment to work on the turnaround externally. The concept had been done in-house. I was actually fine with what I saw at the time as I said.. "Hey, it's a sword and sorcery type barbaric girl on a big boar, I can deal with that" We actually made her fairly muscular, but not beefy. Very in-shape, but attractive. We emphasized a very strong core on her and thicker legs, as she'd have to be really toned and muscular to a) control the animal she was on and b) swing that flail. For a barbarian gal, I thought it was in a decent range. At the time I didn't have much context so I filled in the blanks myself.

I arrived at Riot full time not long after I began working on Sejuani's turnaround. When I entered Riot it was actually the very first thing I worked on as it carried over from my freelance term. However, within a day it was interrupted by being tasked to work on the lady of my life, Leona. Sejuani was put on hold for a while. Volty, who worked on Sejuani was also diverted to Leona at that time I believe.

It wasn't until.. I'd have to check my file dates.. but I'm pretty sure not until I finished working on Talon or Xerath that I returned to Sejuani when we had planned to resume work on her. At that point I finished out her turnaround, at least the greyscale version. Another artist filled in the color work. It wasn't until a while later, at a review, where I learned about her backstory. At that point I learned she was Ashe's sister, was from Freljord, hailed from the tundra and... wait... why did we put her in a bikini?

Needless to say that was a bit of a red flag. At the time though, we were pretty deep into the production process for me to give any well-timed feedback. This was very much a crunch time and the last thing I wanted to do was to make anyone’s life more difficult by insisting we change a ton of stuff. The team as a whole had decided to move forward and I am always and will always be 100% with the team in supporting its decisions. We’re all grownups, we all make well-informed decisions. Even if I have concerns I know darn well the team will execute to the best of its ability. This is where my fault lies. I think I should have voiced my concern a little louder and/or earlier. So, I am absolutely responsible if indeed I did not share feedback appropriately if it was a big concern to me. A well informed opinion never falls on deaf ears here, so I fully accept responsibility for not pushing what I felt was important.

Regardless, Sejuani continued into production and was released. She was difficult for a lot of people considering how much work went into her. I will stand by the fact that despite some initial visual choices I find her quality to be good when it comes to polish and animation. I think she’s a neat character where we had to do some interesting things to overcome certain obstacles. It was also a very hectic time as we had a number of things on our plate simultaneously with upcoming champions. Sejuani was one of a few champions which I think could have marinated a little longer.

This is all the story of development though. We iterate, attempt, analyze and learn. It’s all a learning process with its share of successes and failures. Sejuani works in certain regards. In others I think she falls short. Visually, if someone were to give me the assignment today with the lore context, I’d have probably come up with something very similar to what you’ve suggested. Maybe an elegant but armored fur coat, or more selectively bundled up appearance that still shows she’s a strong, beautiful woman. Instead of a boar I’d have probably gone with a snow leopard, or maybe some other crazy beast more suited for a frozen wasteland. These are things we can indeed try in the future with skins. I think she might benefit for an overhaul in this way that could serve the fantasy we’re trying to communicate with her. This is where I emphasize that I think Sejuani works in concept but not in context. Right now, I agree that her current base visual design doesn’t work when you contextualize it with her background story. If she was in the desert, maybe. From the frozen north, not so much.

I think a lot of the artists feel similar to the way I do about Sejuani in retrospect. We’ve brought up the subject when looking back on her as we ideate skins. We think about the design when we’re developing look in conjunction with story,. That’s what’s great about development at this cadence. We get to learn from our experience so that we can iterate differently next time and use our arsenal of design appropriately.

I hope that was informative.


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Ginga

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11-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
At that point I learned she was Ashe's sister, was from Freljord, hailed from the tundra and... wait... why did we put her in a bikini?

...

Sejuani works in certain regards. In others I think she falls short. Visually, if someone were to give me the assignment today with the lore context, I’d have probably come up with something very similar to what you’ve suggested. Maybe an elegant but armored fur coat, or more selectively bundled up appearance that still shows she’s a strong, beautiful woman. Instead of a boar I’d have probably gone with a snow leopar, or maybe some other crazy beast more suited for a frozen wasteland.
This is where I concentrated on when.


The fact that she is Ashe's sister should justify her being able to survive Freljord while so lightly dressed. If you look at Ashe's attire, she isn't exactly well covered up herself. That thin cape isn't going to do much for her. Combine with the fact that both of them have control over ice magic, it's easy to conclude the two of them aren't going to be as affected by the cold as a normal human is. Sejuani in particular should have even less reason to be armoured than her already scantily clad sister is you read her lore.

"She pushed herself to extremes, walking out into blizzards without food or furs and training while frigid winds raked her flesh. "


And then there is the fact that Sejuani is a barbarian, NOT a paladin some mounted templar knight. In various fantasy settings that Freljord is based off of, barbarians are berserkers that are proud of their bodies. Rather than hiding it behind layers of clothes and armour like some pathetic civilized folk, a barbarian shows it off proudly. Barbarians are overconfient that their well-toned body is enough to survive anything they can thanks to their training. A barbarian leaps into the fray regardless of odds and goes berserk on the enemy, practicality be damned.

Hence why I disagree with adding layers of fur and armour on her. It violates her character as Ashe's sister, Barbarian Queen who trained in Freljord's blizzard with exposed flesh.


Not to mention, the other barbarian in the game, Tryndamere, is even more lightly dressed than Sejuani herself. Why should Sejuani wear layers of armour when her fellow barbarian is currently wearing even less than her? Modesty? Class? She's a Barbarian! She'd sooner let the enemy get a first free hit off her than cover up her proud well-toned body.



If you find Sejuani doesn't work, then how do you think you can pull off a female tank that also happens to be sexy? As I pointed out in my opening post, it's about as impressive as pulling off a Nautilus-sized armoured Assassin.


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Ginga

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Senior Member

11-05-2012

I do see his point behind the snow leopard though...only because Sejuani can't even function as a tank anyways, so why give her such an awesome giant boar? Sejuani's Q is stopped by an Annie standing her ground, that's no boar. Might as well save it up for a future tank done right. Sejuani in her current kit completely wastes the potentials riding a giant boar gives. It's like they added Bristles in just for the hell of it.


They made her kit first and then they worked on how she should look, not the other way around with Sejuani.


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Nubilous

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Q in, aa, WHY HELLO THERE FIRST BLOOD


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Private Riem

Senior Member

11-05-2012

I thought the reason sejuani had such low amount of clothes was the fact that
SHE'S RIDING A FRIGGING BOAR

Do you have ANY IDEA how much heat an animal that size produces?
A LOT. Hell I'd probably walk around in shorts if I had to ride a boar that size. Wearing fur coats? She'd melt.


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Ezran

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Senior Member

11-05-2012

Sejuani has a few fundamental kit problems that need to be fixed by Riot before they fix her boar....

Tanks are supposed to do 1 thing: disrupt the enemy team. This is accomplished by forcing the enemy team to attack them by real or perceived threat to the enemy team. Also commonly referred to as 'aggro' in MMO's.
So tanks in League have a few general mechanics to cause 'aggro' that is useful: They have a lot of CC, which disables enemy champions from doing their job and/or gets them killed via separation. They do a lot of damage and have to be killed before they kill the enemy carries. Or they prevent the enemy team from effectively killing the tank's carries.

Champions such as Amumu, Shen and Malphite have a LOT of CC that can disable enemy carries. They also, by ability design, cause a lot of threat via the damage they can deal to enemy carries.
Champions such as Shen, Lee Sin or Taric all have some inherent ability or qualities that enable them to mitigate a lot of damage to their carry. Shen has shield from his ult, Lee Sin can shield and slow attack speed with his W/E and Taric has a passive armor aura, a heal and an active steroid aura.

High powered tanks currently fufill at least 2 of these criteria. A champion like Sejuani tries, and fails, to fufill more than 1 of these roles. She can build damage, at the cost of being tanky. She can build tanky, but has no real CC besides her ult with which to cause aggro. She has no way to shield her team from damage. Her kit is flawed on a fundamental level, and needs to be fixed to allow her to be more threatening to the enemy team. Otherwise they're going to ignore her and laugh as she runs uselessly after your ADC as he/she kills your entire team unmolested.

That's just my personal opinion on her though.


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QQ Bro

Member

11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyariatheshaman View Post
There was already a mounted Champion, his name was Nunu, and his mount did far more then Mr. Boar ever did.
don't make the yeti angry, you won't like him when he's angry!


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Labomba

Senior Member

11-05-2012

You missed the biggest disparity for her riding the boar -- she's still forced to stop moving when she auto attacks. You would think she'd be able to attack while the boar kept running because they are two separate entities. I've said this countless times in other Sej threads, but compare it to a rodeo cowboy riding a horse. Does the horse stop when the cowboy throws his lasso? No. the horse continues to run and the cowboy wrangles in his steer. So why does the boar stop running when Sej swings her flail? It doesn't make sense.