Double Jeopardy and the Tribunal

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HowICarrY

Member

10-22-2012

bump for justice


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Triska

Senior Member

10-22-2012

Hi HowlCarrY, I'm gonna try to help you out!
If one of the games here (the first one, you said?) is from your last ban, that's definitely not intended and you should put in a ticket to Riot to have them look at your case. However, since I can't help with that directly, I'll try to help you understand the Tribunal system a little better.

When judges are presented a case, we're supposed to go through each game and see if there are any rule/Summoner's Code violations. According to the guidelines presented each time we go to the Tribunal, we are supposed to punish if there is a clear violation of the Code, even if only one of the ~5 games presented is bad. Unfortunately in your case, even if Game 1 was omitted, I'm fairly sure you would have been punished anyway. In all the games, you're always rude or insulting to at least one person on your team. Again, the Tribunal guidelines do say we're allowed to give some leniency in cases where the accused is provoked, but it's NOT a 'get out of jail free' card. We're still supposed to punish if it's a continuing behavior and/or if your retaliation is more serious.

You're certainly not the worst-behaved player I've ever seen, but you still have room for improvement. When another player on your team is breaking the Code, the proper response is NOT to break it yourself to "call them out" or "get back at them." Ideally, you should politely try to curb the behavior:

"Hey, relax, (character). We can still do this, we just need to group up and work together. "
"It's not (character)'s fault, and fighting won't help us win this. Let's try (strategy)."
"I'm sorry I fed, I'm having a bad game, but yelling doesn't solve anything. Do you want to try (strategy)?"

Instead of continuing the fight by engaging them and trying to "win" the argument, you're shutting it down with this tactic and making the game more pleasant for everyone. If the rager refuses to cooperate, just calmly mute them (and if you have to tell your teammates they're muted, try to do so politely instead of using the mute as a taunt). I know it's hard to try and take the high road, but shutting down the argument or silently muting is not "letting them win," it's the exact opposite. Without being engaged, they rage pointlessly to themselves and don't affect your game, and you can report them knowing you're in the right- and if you get reported, you know you won't be in trouble. But if you fight back and try to win against them, you're just letting them decide how your game turns out, and you're putting your account safety at risk.

I hope this helps you out. You seem like you really do want to improve, and I think you can if you just work a little harder! Something that worked well for me is 1. Turning off allchat to remove the temptation, and 2. Talking outloud instead of typing when I'm frustrated. That way I can yell and scream all I want about my STUPID bottom lane or whatever, but I won't be in trouble.


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HowICarrY

Member

10-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triska View Post
Hi HowlCarrY, I'm gonna try to help you out!
If one of the games here (the first one, you said?) is from your last ban, that's definitely not intended and you should put in a ticket to Riot to have them look at your case. However, since I can't help with that directly, I'll try to help you understand the Tribunal system a little better.

When judges are presented a case, we're supposed to go through each game and see if there are any rule/Summoner's Code violations. According to the guidelines presented each time we go to the Tribunal, we are supposed to punish if there is a clear violation of the Code, even if only one of the ~5 games presented is bad. Unfortunately in your case, even if Game 1 was omitted, I'm fairly sure you would have been punished anyway. In all the games, you're always rude or insulting to at least one person on your team. Again, the Tribunal guidelines do say we're allowed to give some leniency in cases where the accused is provoked, but it's NOT a 'get out of jail free' card. We're still supposed to punish if it's a continuing behavior and/or if your retaliation is more serious.

You're certainly not the worst-behaved player I've ever seen, but you still have room for improvement. When another player on your team is breaking the Code, the proper response is NOT to break it yourself to "call them out" or "get back at them." Ideally, you should politely try to curb the behavior:

"Hey, relax, (character). We can still do this, we just need to group up and work together. "
"It's not (character)'s fault, and fighting won't help us win this. Let's try (strategy)."
"I'm sorry I fed, I'm having a bad game, but yelling doesn't solve anything. Do you want to try (strategy)?"

Instead of continuing the fight by engaging them and trying to "win" the argument, you're shutting it down with this tactic and making the game more pleasant for everyone. If the rager refuses to cooperate, just calmly mute them (and if you have to tell your teammates they're muted, try to do so politely instead of using the mute as a taunt). I know it's hard to try and take the high road, but shutting down the argument or silently muting is not "letting them win," it's the exact opposite. Without being engaged, they rage pointlessly to themselves and don't affect your game, and you can report them knowing you're in the right- and if you get reported, you know you won't be in trouble. But if you fight back and try to win against them, you're just letting them decide how your game turns out, and you're putting your account safety at risk.

I hope this helps you out. You seem like you really do want to improve, and I think you can if you just work a little harder! Something that worked well for me is 1. Turning off allchat to remove the temptation, and 2. Talking outloud instead of typing when I'm frustrated. That way I can yell and scream all I want about my STUPID bottom lane or whatever, but I won't be in trouble.
Hey Triska! Thanks for you time and I appreciate your help! I also have judged on tribunal and know how it work, as I am also aware of the summoner's code! I also agree that leniancy should be given, as should be with anything where emotion is involved! Nor do I think I deserve any kind of get out of jail free card.

Also to address your points about my retaliations ever being more serious, the only game would be game one where I could agree with you. I have addressed my issue with game one, though. I would also challenge your idea that if game one was ommited I still would have been banned. Possibly for game 2, but I don't think that one game alone could warrant a ban.

Let me also assure you I don't "call people out" to try and get at them. I do it becuase I believe when you verbalize what someone's exactly doing that's the best way to let them know you know what's going on and you don't want to deal with it. I'll agree in games one (which is from last ban) and two I didn't put smiley faces behind my use your brain, but nor do i wanna hug everyone's face off I come across, especially when they're the one's trolling other people's time. I don't think thats an effective way to tell someone who's already dropping f bombs to man up. That is where you and I will disagree.

Let me also point out that in 60% (the last 3), or 80% had thie game I'd already been punished for was omitted, I said absolutely NOTHING negative or condescending and was more than helpful and uniting and was in my honest opinion a positive influence on all of those games. I also do mute people in multiple games then try to unmute them for the sake of the team, so I do do that too. Its not about winning or losing, its about them remember that someone stood up to them when they tried to bully. Sometimes its a little harsh, but I still don't think I was crazy out of line. If you could give me a specific example I'd love to discuss it wtih you!

I will also say you make some great points! I learned from my raging (games like game one, where again, I'd already been banned for) and obviously in game 2 still have bad times. Everyone does. My point is that without game one being included I don't think I would have made triubnal, plain and simple.

I would also love if you could point out specific examples where I was escelating or was more harsh than anything said to me. If you're interested I'll show you in all the games where I tried to unite if you'd like or the positive things I did do!

<3


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Triska

Senior Member

10-22-2012

Cool! I'm glad you understand the system, a lot of the time people who post here don't really know how the Tribunal works and make some pretty wild assumptions, so I wanted to make sure that wasn't the case here.

As for your questions! I don't think you were ever more insulting than your teammates, but I did also mention the issue of 'repeated behavior.' Ideally, we're not supposed to respond negatively at all when people are insulting to us ingame. Obviously, this is pretty hard sometimes, so there's leniency given-- say, you were reported for 4 games, and in 3 of them you were raged at and didn't respond, but in game 4 you snapped and told someone to "**** off." That, for me and I'm sure many others, would be a pardon! However, in all your games, you do always respond to people, and are sometimes just as rude. I'll post some of the quotes that would make your case start to lean towards a Punish, if I were viewing it (some will be condensed for readability's sake).

Game 2:

Quote:
Riven [00:06:38] you're retarded
Obviously, this is a straight-up insult.

Quote:
Riven [00:08:05] wtf draius lmfao
Riven [00:08:14] nice chase bro
Riven [00:08:16] stop talking **** and pay attention
Not bad alone, but still insulting. This would never cause a punish on its own, but combined with everything else it starts to paint you in a negative light.

Quote:
Riven [00:17:44] i didn't ask for toplane
Riven [00:17:48] or to get 2 levels behind
Riven [00:17:56] and have a jungler that doesn't pay attention and come help
Riven [00:18:05] but you dont hear me on my period brobro
Again, this is pretty insulting. On its own, not a punish, but with everything else it's repeated negative behavior. As a whole, this game isn't the best. I probably would have skipped or Punished.

Game 3:
Quote:
Ezreal [00:00:15] no one appreciates your passive aggresive emotional displacement
Ezreal [00:00:23] pretend you're 26 in social settings
Ezreal [00:00:24] k thanks
This is, again, only mildly rude. But just another drop in the bucket that's slowly filling with negative comments. The rest of the game you're not bad, but you do seem to be purposefully trying to aggravate the Kayle. Kayle seems to be fairly bad herself, so this game alone would have likely been a Pardon or Skip from me, but it's not an ideal by any means.

Game 4:
Quote:
Ahri [00:07:41] stop doing dumb **** plz
Even with a 'plz,' this isn't exactly polite!

Quote:
Ahri [00:11:42] you kids are gonna lose us the game
Even if it's true, thowing blame around doesn't help, nor does being condescending by calling your teammates 'kids.'

Quote:
Ahri [00:12:02] called and pinged
Ahri [00:12:03] are you dubm:?
Assuming that typo was supposed to be 'dumb,' another minor insult.

Quote:
Ahri [All] [00:20:48] so tired of having a game
Ahri [All] [00:20:53] where my team is a bunch of whining kids
Ahri [All] [00:20:56] that wont admit to their own faults
Ahri [All] [00:20:59] and blames everyone else
When you find yourself badmouthing your team in Allchat, it's never a good sign. This is, again, a minor insult that you felt the need to share with the enemy team. Overall, this game would be another skip or possible Punish.

Game 5:

Quote:
Ezreal [00:23:01] lee why u build a sheen?
Cho'Gath [00:23:42] trinity
Ezreal [00:23:49] why =\
Lee Sin [00:23:58] why am i 6/2 and why are you 0/6
Although I understand the urge to be helpful, it's usually not a good idea to give build advice unless you've been asked for it-- especially if your score isn't great. It's not against the rules by any means, but it is a quick way to start a fight, so I'm pointing it out here for you to learn from!

So, though each individual game isn't really awful, they do paint a picture of you as a continual negative influence. If each game was presented as a singular case, I couldn't tell you how the voting would go. But all together, they present you as being a bit belligerent and rude consistently. I definitely understand the urge to call people out on their bad play or bad behavior, but this is really not necessary-- the only thing it accomplishes is getting YOU in trouble. If someone is being a jerk, report them at the end of the game. Their inevitable ban will do all the waking up they need, and if not, they'll eventually be removed from the game. Either way, I don't think it's worth putting your own account in jeopardy-- at least, it's not for me.


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HowICarrY

Member

10-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triska View Post
Cool! I'm glad you understand the system, a lot of the time people who post here don't really know how the Tribunal works and make some pretty wild assumptions, so I wanted to make sure that wasn't the case here.

As for your questions! I don't think you were ever more insulting than your teammates, but I did also mention the issue of 'repeated behavior.' Ideally, we're not supposed to respond negatively at all when people are insulting to us ingame. Obviously, this is pretty hard sometimes, so there's leniency given-- say, you were reported for 4 games, and in 3 of them you were raged at and didn't respond, but in game 4 you snapped and told someone to "**** off." That, for me and I'm sure many others, would be a pardon! However, in all your games, you do always respond to people, and are sometimes just as rude. I'll post some of the quotes that would make your case start to lean towards a Punish, if I were viewing it (some will be condensed for readability's sake).

Game 2:

Obviously, this is a straight-up insult.


Not bad alone, but still insulting. This would never cause a punish on its own, but combined with everything else it starts to paint you in a negative light.


Again, this is pretty insulting. On its own, not a punish, but with everything else it's repeated negative behavior. As a whole, this game isn't the best. I probably would have skipped or Punished.

Game 3:

This is, again, only mildly rude. But just another drop in the bucket that's slowly filling with negative comments. The rest of the game you're not bad, but you do seem to be purposefully trying to aggravate the Kayle. Kayle seems to be fairly bad herself, so this game alone would have likely been a Pardon or Skip from me, but it's not an ideal by any means.

Game 4:

Even with a 'plz,' this isn't exactly polite!


Even if it's true, thowing blame around doesn't help, nor does being condescending by calling your teammates 'kids.'


Assuming that typo was supposed to be 'dumb,' another minor insult.


When you find yourself badmouthing your team in Allchat, it's never a good sign. This is, again, a minor insult that you felt the need to share with the enemy team. Overall, this game would be another skip or possible Punish.

Game 5:


Although I understand the urge to be helpful, it's usually not a good idea to give build advice unless you've been asked for it-- especially if your score isn't great. It's not against the rules by any means, but it is a quick way to start a fight, so I'm pointing it out here for you to learn from!

So, though each individual game isn't really awful, they do paint a picture of you as a continual negative influence. If each game was presented as a singular case, I couldn't tell you how the voting would go. But all together, they present you as being a bit belligerent and rude consistently. I definitely understand the urge to call people out on their bad play or bad behavior, but this is really not necessary-- the only thing it accomplishes is getting YOU in trouble. If someone is being a jerk, report them at the end of the game. Their inevitable ban will do all the waking up they need, and if not, they'll eventually be removed from the game. Either way, I don't think it's worth putting your own account in jeopardy-- at least, it's not for me.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm glad this can b e discussed in a civil manner and we can see some logical progression here, something lacking in tribunal cases.

Game 2: Flame war was obviously way harder on me. Look at the language used. Also take in context I was first pick and this guy begged for mid. I decided to go top as Riven and hoped my team might help knowing that I would be at a disadvantage. Sad in toplane tri to 1:30 then recalled for my 4th potion. Get back to lane and his red gets taken. Apparently I didn't camp his red buff long enough. Sure, calling him retarded isn't the best, but it was tame compared to what I was receiving. My replies to him from then on were not respectful. I will agree with you there. I also agree it paints me in a not happy go lucky light. But again, keep in context everything else that was said and the degree to which I put myself on the line in champ select, etc. Also I wasn't happy my lane got ignored because he didn't secure his jungle. I became the black sheep this match and in my opinion a game like this shouldn't even make tribunal. Like you said it paints a bigger picture, but I'm not here and banned for just game two. There is a bigger picture involved. Game one being one in which I was already banned for and lets discuss the rest of the games.

Game 3: Kayle was beyond rude in champ select. Unfortunately that chat log isn't here. He talked in passive aggressive hyperbole and tried to bully people by some intellectual high ground. I didn't take kindly to it. I didn't do anything mean. I simply told him in English that he was being detrimental and passive aggressive and that no one appreciated it. Are you saying that is uncalled for? IMO I was smashing it before it kept on and escalated. I went support Ezreal because Kayle was farming. I went out of my way to be a bigger person and sacrifice for my team. If anything I was a shining star this game. I was unhappy with Kayle, but I did my damnest to win the game and I did secure a victory for my team. No negativity. Kayle was unhappy she didn't get me to troll and flame and decided to fabricate lies and report me. Dunno how I did anything wrong here, I can't see your side on this one.

Game 4: Again, i used words like dumb. Dumb plays were made. Dumb plays by other players when I couldn't help were enough for two kids (yes kids because of their feeble actions) to go afk and give up 13 minutes into a ranked game. I continued to play. I expressed frustration in all chat for people giving up and calling me bad. This is not toxic behavior. I believe that sharing frustration in having a team that refuses to participate and throws games is warranted. Its not always rainbows and butterflies and when duo queue says afk going to get food and does exactly that only to come back 5 minutes later to trash talk more, I'm not going to be smileys about it. Neither should you or anyone.

Game 5: I ask a legitimate question to start a discussion about better builds. He decides to comment on my score. Here your saying that because I'm not doing well I shouldn't offer advice?

The point in you made about game 5 reflects my general disdain and spite for this entire situation. Everything is situational and just because it could possibly by some people be seen as flaming then it can't be done? Even if I'm legitimately trying to be a help and I get flamed in return? That is the double standard that is the problem here. I call out people that cross the line mildly and pay the price. People like this Kayle and lee sin whine and flame hard.

I will agree and reiterate that there are better ways to handle situations. I'm no saint and neither are you or anyone. If we want to look at bigger pictures then why do I have over 200 honors in less than a month? A few salty people report me, I lose all of that, banned for seven days and that's it. I have a problem with this situation and I don't see the logic. Let's again try and remember the things you see on a daily basis in league and the internet. I am not here to spread good cheer and give everyone smiley faces 24/7, even though I believe I am quite nice most of the time. If this deserves seven day bans and I have to walk fine lines when I get trolled and bad mouthed even when I try to rally I don't know how much faith I can continue to have in this game. I enjoy it dearly but this passes the line of political correctness for me.

Glad this debate is staying civil and I look forward to more dialogue.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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10-22-2012
1 of 1 Riot Posts

The Tribunal technically only searches for games since your last ban, so if this actually happened it's a bug. Could you send me the dates of your Reform Cards that supposedly had overlapping games? I just checked your last 4 cards and I don't see any overlapping games.


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bionic error

Recruiter

10-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Ferret View Post
Also you can stand up for yourself without insulting and cursing. Those are the main factors i can see so far in the case. If you where nicer and didnt try to flame other people then you will probably alright.
There is a FILTER for a reason, don't like it? TURN IT ON!

All chat rage? TURN IT OFF!


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Lord Ferret

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Senior Member

10-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionic error View Post
There is a FILTER for a reason, don't like it? TURN IT ON!

All chat rage? TURN IT OFF!
the mute button or the filter isnt an excuse for you to be toxic.

Dont like being banned. Dont be a dick.


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Triska

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
I will agree and reiterate that there are better ways to handle situations. I'm no saint and neither are you or anyone. If we want to look at bigger pictures then why do I have over 200 honors in less than a month? A few salty people report me, I lose all of that, banned for seven days and that's it. I have a problem with this situation and I don't see the logic. Let's again try and remember the things you see on a daily basis in league and the internet. I am not here to spread good cheer and give everyone smiley faces 24/7, even though I believe I am quite nice most of the time. If this deserves seven day bans and I have to walk fine lines when I get trolled and bad mouthed even when I try to rally I don't know how much faith I can continue to have in this game. I enjoy it dearly but this passes the line of political correctness for me.
I think the main point to take away here is that, while you may have had reasons to act the way you did, it still broke a rule, so you were punished. Like I said, you're far from the worst player I've ever seen. You're not that bad compared to all the horrible toxic jerks out there at all. But you still broke the rules, so you were reminded (with a short ban) that you need to be on your best behavior.

I'm not saying the other people in your games were fine-- they absolutely were bad too, and I'm sure they're going to get punished as well. And you don't have to be super cheerful all the time! God, I couldn't manage that either. No one expects you to be a saint 24/7. And I absolutely do believe you're a pleasant, good player the majority of the time.

However, the simple guideline they DO want you to follow boils down to "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." If a teammate is feeding, you could say something like "Hey (charater), would you like some advice?" If they say no or act rude in return, just go "Okay." And stay quiet. If you don't have the energy to be helpful (lord knows I don't always!) just stay quiet. If someone is being a jerk, you could politely ask them to stop with the examples I said above. If you don't think you could be polite, then just stay quiet. And after the game is over, report them for breaking Code.

I know it's really hard to be "good" all the time, especially when someone is being a flaming ******canoe. Believe me, I've had bad days where I let a snide comment slip out. But these happen so rarely, and I work hard to keep it reigned in at all times (as much as I am possibly able to), that I have never been warned or punished in any way. And I think you have it in you to be the same.


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nbs0317

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Member

10-23-2012

it seems Tribunals sioned this player.