The DFG nerf was too harsh.

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Eriatha

Junior Member

10-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, to be unpopular, they dialed down my suggestion. I wanted to remove it from the game.

I think that item's existence destroys diversity and interest - you should just use DFG on all burst casters, and all balance needs to factor in an extra nuke. There's no case where DFG is good and DFG isn't abusive - that basically is the definition of toxic.
And how do burst champions that really rely on DFG manage? Champions like Veigar, who doesn't have enough weapons in his arsenal to compete with the newer champions as it is?

If DFG was a problem on certain champions, change them to compensate. Don't change the item for everyone.

The nerf has reduced DFG down to an item that isn't cost effective now. So basically it's been removed from the game anyway. The idea that your suggestion has been "dialed down" is laughable. You don't need to remove the option to buy DFG to remove the item from the game.


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BipolarRooster

Senior Member

10-19-2012

Removing the CDR made a lot of sense to me, the core items didn't include any CDR like they used to (Phoenix codex). Only seems right to me since it just adds too much AP and burst potential to all AP Mids


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StompEmlnTheNuts

Senior Member

10-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
They're not available right now due to risk/reward favorability of safe wave-clearers, and the disincentive to engage due to high jungle risk (high volume of potential ganks and a narrow lane). Additionally, flat MR mastery availability has nerfed burst.

Burst was functioning fine before without DFG, so you have to look at the factors that are different between then and now to find the causes. DFG is a new addition, and in competitive play it only allows Eve to work.

In solo queue and sub-1800 rating, burst casters are great even without it.
Why not rework the nuke completely? I really don't like this scaling item with more items you get concept. Especially when there is one that already exists (Rabadon's). So with Rab and DFG, you've got so much extra damage that you don't really pay for.

I like the idea of completely removing it, however, I read that the intention of this item is to get through on tanks. So how about make it a flat damage nuke with a MR reduction or damage increase debuff? Or a nuke you have to pay more for to increase their strength. Like Dagon from DotA.


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Bazorki

Junior Member

10-19-2012

Removing Cdr is the worst thing they could do i didnt even buy dfg for the active sure its nice and neat but it was the only manaless Cdr item i could buy on katarina because i dont want to be forced to buy cdr boots. so morello will there be a new Cdr item for non mana ap casters?


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TeemosBigSister

Junior Member

10-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I wanted There's no case where DFG is good and DFG isn't abusive - that basically is the definition of toxic.

sure, there is ... when teemo needs to assassinate someone to carry the game as usually.

well remove dfg or double shroom damage ... pick wisely


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Elealar

Senior Member

10-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, to be unpopular, they dialed down my suggestion. I wanted to remove it from the game.

I think that item's existence destroys diversity and interest - you should just use DFG on all burst casters, and all balance needs to factor in an extra nuke. There's no case where DFG is good and DFG isn't abusive - that basically is the definition of toxic.
You use Deathcap on all DPS casters and IE on all ADs too, what does that really prove? There's a bunch of non-burst mages who don't use DFG, and I daresay it's less ubiquitous than Sorc Shoes or Deathcap.

DFG on Karma or Janna is good (btw, AP Janna didn't deserve the nerf) but not overpowered; it simply allows them to be relevant DPS threats while being casters too. DFG on Veigar or LeBlanc is likewise quite fair since they're countered by what you build against the item anyways, MR. It just so happens Eve was a bit too good with it.


And yeah, DFG as it stands is too strong for its cost but you could just gut its numbers a bit instead of gutting the whole item. It's a key component for making mages with low number of damage spells (Janna, Karma, Sion, Gragas, etc.) functional. The big reason DFG is so heavily used is because it's the only good CDR item in the game (your Evil Tome just doesn't stack up right now) especially for non-mana casters; if Deathcap is the IE of mages, DFG is the Phantom Dancer. Its numbers are just a bit too high right now but that's it; cut the base damage, leave the CDR alone or cut the CDR and leave the base damage alone (and make another CDR item or make Evil Tome less worthless).

As it stands, you should've removed it until you're done reworking it. There's no sense in the "we leave this in game but make it intentionally unusable"-approach; it just serves to screw over new players and wastes every else's time. It's a "newbie trap", something a game marketed to the masses really should strive to avoid.


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Trynox

Senior Member

10-19-2012

While I have to say I'm a bit sad about the huge nerf to DFG, I do agree that this item is overpowered in its current state. In my opinion (and I main mid) it should not be viable to be built on any AP carry in the game but rather a few, namely AP assassins like Katarina, Evelynn or AP burst mages like LeBlanc and Veigar.
The problem now is that nerfing DFG will take a lot of the game presence of these champions as roaming as Katarina for example will be a lot harder now. I'm not even sure if people will still build DFG rather than going back to gunblade. To be honest, I'd rather have the whole item removed, too and have slight adjustments to all AP assassins and burst mages.


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dirtpoor

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Senior Member

10-19-2012

Zilean just cried throughout the past, future and present. I guess its all up to his Q and lichbane to do his burst now. RIP DFG zilean.

with 10% less and no CD reduce I doubt ill get it on my DFG-cho ult combo from now on.

Well... DFG + cho ult was pretty OP I guess.


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Ippiki Okami

Senior Member

10-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afflictid View Post
I understand you wanting to reduce the base % damage, but then you need to increase the bonus % per 100 ability power by more than 1%. It should be 6%.

The base is going from 25% to 15%. The point was to make it less amazing to buy as a first item, but the scaling wasn't increased enough. They're also completely removing the CDR.
The item is exceedingly OP.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-19-2012
7 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane Azmadi View Post
No, you couldn't. You didn't have a clue how to fix Eve, so you DID remove her from the game and reused her name, model and voice on a completely new champ who ran on totally different mechanics and a totally different skill set. Be honest.

And while you're at it, you might as well have removed DFG. Leaving an item in the game and nerfing it to worthlessness is NOT really better than just taking it out and anyone who tries to use it now would have to have rocks in their head.
True. OK, you're right, we do remove stuff when it's toxic. Thanks!