Syndra Quality of Life/Useability changes

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Blackthorn

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Senior Member

10-17-2012

Anivia was mentioned as a champion that requires mana itemization to be effective however with the damage steroid anivia gets from hitting her combo its totally viable to stack mana and still have great damage and lane pressure as well as team fight presence with her aoe damage and utility. Syndra only has the damage steroid on a situational double q into ultimate for single target burst making her akin to an assassin but without the mobility or range to get to the back line. I still question why there isnt a damage steroid applied for hitting what is one of the more difficult skills shots in the game: q into e.


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RedPlanet

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Senior Member

10-17-2012

2 main issues:

- Her passive feels like a penalty, not a benefit. More than anything it seems like it's there to make you feel bad for leveling something other than Q.
- No vision. It's been posted elsewhere that champions like Cass, Orianna, and Lulu were given vision so that they can use their spell combos properly. When you play Syndra you really understand this. It can be frustrating to play a combo-ish character when you don't know if your spells are hitting. Then you have characters like Anivia and Karthus who have spells with vision for no real reason at all.


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Vuvuzilean

Member

10-17-2012

Hi Riot just letting you know that Syndra in her current state will never be a viable pick over another champion. Theres nothing wrong with her AP ratio's, her ult, the responses on her skills (If you think shaving off .10 seconds on the delay of a skill is why people don't pick her, then you guys obviously can't see the bigger picture.). The problem is in her design itself, her kit is too weak to keep up with the current meta. Every viable AP out there has some kind of snare or escape option, as it stands there is absolutely no reason to play her, much like Malzahar who also doesn't have a viable escape option. Like I said, her damage is good its just her kit that is flawed, her small pushback offers very little in terms of defense and simply can't even be compared to something like a Zyra snare or Morgana Snare or Ahri charm or triple dash.

She is sort of the opposite of Victor, who has a decent defense mechanism but no damage.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-18-2012
18 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feladorzor View Post
So you want to make a combo-champ, but you don't want to give her any repercussions for not combining skills? Thats the entire idea of a combo champ, if you fail to get the combination you will be punished for it, but if you succeed you are rewarded with high damage or good cc.

Again I will reference Anivia. Her Flash Frost does half the damage it would if you fail to land either its moving damage or its exploding damage, get the both together and you get alot of damage. Her E is almost completely useless without the enemy being Chilled from either Q or R and the the punishment is entirely noticable to the player. Any Anivia player knows that the only situation you should use E against a non-chilled target is if they have bare minimum health left. Other than that, not using Q or R before E will ALWAYS be the wrong play.

I am disappointed you did not respond with any thoughts on my thread as I think the very design flaws with Syndra is important to acknowledge if you plan on fixing her. You say there are currently scenarios where using E or W without an orb is optimal to the circumstances, specifically for damage, but please explain to me as a mage, why is Syndra using E on its own to do damage? Syndra is very squishy, she requires proper positioning to not get melted, so I don't see how people are using E without the orbs as a source of damage without first placing themselves in compromising positions.

Currently Syndra has for 4 separate skills, each of them do something, each of them are unique. The problem is that none of them work well together because the skills only have a minor interaction with eachother tied together entirely by the one skill, Dark Sphere, her main source of damage. Her W, E and R are almost entirely dependent on Q already, and yet there are no true rewards that come from combining those skills, nor can the skills truly be combined without the presence of her Q.

Lets look at other combination champs;

Anivia - 2 skills apply one Debuff. 3rd Skill on low cooldown can be combined with either of the two for High burst damage.

Brand - 4 skills apply one debuff. All 4 skills provide a different benefit. All 4 skills can be combined with eachother.

Cassiopeia - 2 skills apply one Debuff. 3rd skill on low cooldown can be combined with either skill (can also be combined with Teemo & Singed poison) for high damage output + cooldown reset.

Unfortunately there are very few of these champions available now. Even Zyra doesn't fit into this category as her plants are a mediocre part of her kit and almost unecessary with the amount of damage/cc she has with base skills alone. I was hoping that Syndra was going to be the next champion that had more depth than just skill order, but I may have gotten my hopes up.

Even after reading everything that I've written here it's now come to my attention that my suggestion wouldn't even be close to what I want. In order to make Syndra a true combo champion her Q's would need to add a debuff to the enemies and when they are hit by any of her other skills they take bonus magic damage and the debuff is removed. This could in fact be something all of her skills can apply. When the enemy is hit by or even walks on an orb, they get the debuff applied to them.

This will add a psychological level of play that all us Syndra fans were hoping for but were let down by.
There are two different approaches to combo champs I feel. The first is to reward the player substantially for executing on a combo and therefore penalize play that fails to do so. Cassiopeia's a good examples of this type with Twin Fang's interaction with poisoned targets. The other approach is to give a champion a number of tools that can be combo'd, but sometimes work better when seperated. Lulu's a good example of this I feel - sometimes you'll want to combo both E and ult on an ally, other times you'll split them, sometimes you'll want to use E on an enemy to set up a near guaranteed Glitter Lance hit, other times you're better off keeping Pix near and shooting like a normal skillshot.

Both approaches have their strengths and I'm very glad we've got both in the game, Syndra tends more towards the second category however, with situations where it's optimal to combo and where it's not. Force of Will for example is sometimes best used to extend a Dark Sphere's life, at other times though you'll want to use it to stop a minion being killed by your own minions if you can't kill it in time, to throw a minion because you want to save your Q cooldown to combo with E but do want to slow a target immediately etc. E you will want to combo with a sphere more often obviously, given the incentive the stun provides, depending on your sphere placement and Q cooldown though sometimes the immediate knockback by itself as a counter to a dash/blink or as an instant interupt is the better play.

We certainly could rework Syndra so that if you're not executing a particular combo right you're not playing optimally. Forcing that sort of combo on all characters however is something I believe can really restrict gameplay - a combo champ need not mean 'Do it this way or fail', there's plenty of space in 'Do in this way and sometimes it will be advantageous'. Fundamentally I disagree that requiring the player to execute a specific combo necessarily adds depth - it's just another tool and one that has the potential to really inhibit depth, while adding the opportunity/requirement for additional mechanical mastery, if handled poorly.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-18-2012
19 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oathie View Post
I'm not playing her unless her Dark Spheres give her vision. And her E has an increase in it's length and not it's width.

Seriously. She has so much potential (no pun intended) as a support. And i really want to play her as one.

Similar to Zyra, where AP does alot of damage, yet Support is also viable.

yes i main support, she has the potential of being a STRONG support. Please make it happen.

I love your work, (Ziggs and Varus), keep it up. Creative and fun all around.
I'd love to get her into a spot where she can be used as support sometimes like Zyra (fellow support main here btw). First priority though is to get her AP carry role sorted out, rather than mixing a bunch of different focuses into a single set of changes.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-18-2012
20 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godunderscor View Post
@Meddler

1. A lot of these changes are QoL fixes more than anything. Being her creator, what was your reasoning behind leaving these changes until now? Were her original spell functions intentional and if so, what was your purpose behind say - making Syndra Force of Will cast-time slightly slower than average?

2. In a thread a little while back, Xypherous mentioned switching the order in which Flat and Percentage Armor Penetration/Reduction works from its current order: flat then % to % then flat. Is anything being done on this front?
2a. How does one contact Xypherous?
A lot of these changes reflect that we built a bit too much counterplay and requirement for fiddly (rather than interesting) mechanical execution into her initial kit, particularly compared to the payoffs. We were also a bit paranoid about repeating some of the same things that happened with Orianna (high difficulty champ that proved to be too strong once players got to grips with her kit a month or two post release) and in retrospect overreacted a bit to try and avoid some of those possible problems.

Regarding flat versus percentage reductions I know that was one of the ideas being considered still a little while back, I'm not directly involved with the Season 3 changes Xypherous is working on though. In terms of contacting him your best bet is here on the forums though said Season 3 stuff's keeping him really busy right now (lot of testing and iterating going on).


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-18-2012
21 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by XNinjaFuHiya View Post
I'm sorry to barge in on a totally unrelated post but, Meddler, what are you guys planning for Trundle?
You'll need to catch someone from Live or possibly Morello on that one. I know there's desire to do some work on him at some point but from memory a couple of other champ reworks are higher priority.


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Raptamei

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Still not viable, sorry. Mids with weak cc are not viable.


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

10-18-2012

If it went from Flat-% to %-Flat then it would be a very good indirect Xerath buff. Now those Sorc shoes and flat reduction runes will have an impact late game.


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Punish This Hole

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Is it only me or does she take too much time to do her combo. In a teamfight, a mage is suppose to get in Burst AD or AD carry die or escape.
For example:
Annie: RWQ
Kass: REQ
Leblanc: QRW
Lux: QER
Malzahar: QWER
Orianna: QWR
Ryze: RQWEQ
Zyra: WWEQR
See a trend here?

But for Syndra its: Q pause, W pause then W again, Q and then R and you cant really count on E to be of any damage except for the knockback cc

On average, her combo takes 6 seconds to complete. That's an awefully long time for a mage. Look at Annie she can burst down in less than 1.75 seconds

In lane, yes she is great(sometimes) because she has time to set up her combo but when it comes down it, she wont be able to trade with any mage because of the amount of time it takes her to burst someone.

Swain is a mage that takes his time to kill someone but its ok because he's built to take some damage and get in the thicket of things. Syndra has to be in semi close range to do so